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Saturday, March 15. 2008France is Best in CounterterrorismPosted by Joerg Wolf in European Issues on Saturday, March 15. 2008 French counterterrorism efforts have been praised by several analysts, but I am surprised to see that two scholars of the American Enterprise Institute argue that "France is the world's most sophisticated practitioner of counterterrorism. The U.S. can learn from her experience." Reuel Marc Gerecht and Gary J. Schmitt write in The American: Whereas September 11, 2001, was a shock to the American counterterrorist establishment, it wasn't a révolution des mentalités in Paris. Two waves of terrorist attacks, the first in the mid-1980s and the second in the mid-1990s, have made France acutely aware of both state-supported Middle Eastern terrorism and freelancing but organized Islamic extremists. In comparison, the security services in Great Britain and Germany were slow to awaken to the threat from homegrown radical Muslims. Britain's gamble was that its multicultural approach to immigrants was superior to France's forced-assimilation model. But with the discovery of one terrorist plot after another being planned by British Muslims, as well as the deadly transportation bombings that took place in London on July 7, 2005, the British have begun to question the wisdom of their "Londonistan" approach to Muslim immigration.And France does not even have a Guantanamo type prison. Or does it? In 2005, the European Council's commissioner for human rights has described the Paris prison "Palais de Justice" as a "dungeon" with "inhumane" conditions. See the Telegraph report cited in Davids Medienkritik. While there is criticism of US counterterrorism practices, US prisons in Guanatanamo and those for ordinary criminals on US soil, France does not get much media scrutiny. UPDATE: The Palais de Justice was closed in June 2006. See comment by Axel.
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franchie
- #1 - 2008-03-15 13:21 - (Reply)
Thanks for pointing a positive aspect of french reality, that is not displayed in the average anglo-saxons MSM. Comments ()
Joe Noory
- #1.1 - 2008-03-18 18:58 - (Reply)
I don't buy it. In the US, where Pew found otherwise, you just don't hear the kind of obsession with Jews that you do, even among the "aboriginal" French. You also don't hear of people getting beaten up because they're Jews as you do in France. Comments ()
Pat Patterson
- #1.1.1 - 2008-03-18 21:49 - (Reply)
Easy, they're not. They're Americans and the rest of the world except for the Western Hemisphere still doesn't understand. Ethnic identity in the US is miles wide and 1/8 inch deep. Which means that an Irish saint's day and the anniversary of a great victory for Mexican nationalists are both drunken brawls where little girls get knocked down when free beer is announced. Comments ()
Kevin Sampson
- #1.1.1.1 - 2008-03-19 00:24 - (Reply)
'Ethnic identity in the US is miles wide and 1/8 inch deep.' Comments ()
Pat Patterson
- #1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-03-19 03:19 - (Reply)
I definitely agree with the "some" but I have always been a glass half full kind of guy. As fearsome as some of the defenders of Rev. Wright at Trinity sound I'm wondering how many would retreat to redoubts in Appalachia to mount Castro like insurgencies. Those house payments and music recitals tend to tone down the actions if not the rhetoric. Comments ()
franchie
- #1.1.2 - 2008-03-19 10:21 - (Reply)
Jojo, do you miss me on "no passaran" ? Comments ()
Joe Noory
- #1.1.2.1 - 2008-03-20 13:13 - (Reply)
No, it really doesn't matter to us whether you drop in or not. Comments ()
franchie
- #1.1.2.1.1 - 2008-03-20 13:32 - (Reply)
seems you only focus on these lonely medias, that are your scratching hair ; I happen not to read them as a basic info media ; sometimes they have good reports on scientifical or oddy infos ; there are many more possibilities of getting news ; he, we are not a third world country, like it or not ! Comments ()
Pat Patterson
- #2 - 2008-03-16 00:10 - (Reply)
I thought the authors were being very kind when describing, what to an American would look like segregated housing and opportunity, France's model of "forced-assimilation." But I'm not to sure about adopting some of the more onerous practices of the Napoleonic Code to deal with terrorism doesn't do more than create the kind of hostility and alienation among immigrants that the US has avoided. Comments ()
franchie
- #3 - 2008-03-16 11:27 - (Reply)
Is CAIR so fair ? that's not what I read in your MSM Comments ()
Zyme
- #4 - 2008-03-16 11:54 - (Reply)
Only having a tough stance towards immigrants secures assimilation, we had to find out as well after decades of laissez-faire. Comments ()
Anonymous
- #6 - 2008-03-16 13:31 - (Reply)
So rather central France, huh? Comments ()
Fuchur
- #7 - 2008-03-16 14:47 - (Reply)
You completely miss the point when you compare the "Palais de Justice" with Guantanamo. The problem with Guantanamo is that it's an institution of lawlessness. An inmate there has de jure no rights whatsoever - no habeas corpus, no Geneva Conventions, not even the most basic human rights. Obviously, that's something that contradicts the most basic rules of democracy. Comments ()
Joerg - Atlantic Review
- #7.1 - 2008-03-16 15:44 - (Reply)
So [i]de jure[/i] is of more concern than [i]de facto[/i]? Comments ()
Fuchur
- #7.1.1 - 2008-03-16 17:52 - (Reply)
[i]I think both are important.[/i] Comments ()
Don S
- #7.1.2 - 2008-03-17 14:39 - (Reply)
"I just got the hunch that US prisons (mainland and Gitmo) get more scrutiny in the European press than European prisons." Comments ()
franchie
- #7.1.2.1 - 2008-03-17 16:15 - (Reply)
all the facts that concern state security are scrutinied and do not depend on civil investigations ; that the particularity of our laws system in the 5th republique, thanks Charles De Gaulle, and he knew a lot about "security". Discretion is the motto for success. Comments ()
Don S
- #7.1.2.1.1 - 2008-03-17 18:06 - (Reply)
"the difference with your country is that the rendition system applies only on our territory ; we don't extract "virtual terrorists" from a foreign country or keep them in custody in a foreign country" Comments ()
franchie
- #7.1.2.1.1.1 - 2008-03-17 18:47 - (Reply)
what's the problem ? that we have immunity when you haven't, not my fault ! Comments ()
franchie
- #7.1.2.1.1.1.1 - 2008-03-17 21:14 - (Reply)
not sure though that Carlos was extracted by some Frenchs, there was a judge requierration on him, that, may-be, an agreement with the Egyp police helped to rappatry him ; but you do have the info, please, share it. Comments ()
Anonymous
- #7.1.2.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-03-17 22:46 - (Reply)
"You seem to be implying that the agents of the country the prisoner is 'renditioned' to conduct their interrogations on French soil?!!!" Comments ()
Joe Noory
- #7.2 - 2008-03-17 16:21 - (Reply)
I also don't get the "lawlessness" argument, since these aren't prisoners detained under civil law. Actually under the Geneva convention stateless or un-uniformed combatants may simply be shot on sight. They are being given the BENEFIT of being treated as POWs. Comments ()
Fuchur
- #7.2.1 - 2008-03-17 18:19 - (Reply)
[i]I also don't get the "lawlessness" argument, since these aren't prisoners detained under civil law.[/i] Comments ()
Joe Noory
- #7.2.1.1 - 2008-03-19 01:05 - (Reply)
In the vacuum of a space protected from the slings and arrows of having to engage in the ugliness that comes with security, that's easy to say. Comments ()
Axel
- #8 - 2008-03-16 16:58 - (Reply)
"In a report published in February, then Council of Europe Commissioner for Human Rights Alvaro Gil-Robles drew attention to overcrowding and unhygienic conditions in detention centers for immigrants, as well as in prisons. The holding center in the Palais de Justice in Paris, where Gil-Robles described conditions as “inhuman and degrading,” was closed in June." Comments ()
Joerg - Atlantic Review
- #8.1 - 2008-03-16 17:11 - (Reply)
Great, let's hope Guantanamo is closed soon too. Comments ()
Don S
- #8.1.1 - 2008-03-17 18:13 - (Reply)
So I take it Angela has changed her policy to allow GBay inmates to be settled in Germany? Or is that something which is only good for the US, not for Germany, and no matter that Germany exported most of the leadership of the 9/11 prot to your American friends. Or did Atta and Binshalibh not come from Hamburg? Comments ()
franchie
- #9 - 2008-03-16 17:33 - (Reply)
in any case, Palais de justice de Paris, isn't worst than the kind of prisonners would get in their own countries according to their goal, kill the maximum of civilians. Comments ()
Don S
- #9.1 - 2008-03-17 14:43 - (Reply)
"Palais de justice de Paris, isn't worst than the kind of prisonners would get in their own countries according to their goal, kill the maximum of civilians. Comments ()
franchie
- #9.1.1 - 2008-03-17 16:20 - (Reply)
"yet many French have a problem with Gitmo" Comments ()
Don S
- #9.1.1.1 - 2008-03-17 18:10 - (Reply)
Perhaps only 95% of Le Monde columnists & Jacques Chirac. Do as we say, not as we do, or we'll read you out as international lawbreakers! Comments ()
franchie
- #9.1.1.1.1 - 2008-03-17 18:35 - (Reply)
Bah, you read Le Monde of course, good for your culture : it's the intellos'paper Comments ()
joe
- #10 - 2008-03-17 10:25 - (Reply)
Declare those at Gitmo as EPW's. They can remain there forever. Comments ()
Zyme
- #11 - 2008-03-17 21:09 - (Reply)
The americans raise a very important point here: What to do with the inmates of Guantanamo? It has become obvious that even in Germany the government is unwilling to welcome them back in our society - for good reason. Comments ()
Don S
- #11.1 - 2008-03-18 13:47 - (Reply)
"That leaves the question on what to do with the current inmates - but why not leave them there? After all, the US have to take all the fire for catching them in the first place :D" Comments ()
franchie
- #12 - 2008-03-17 23:33 - (Reply)
the attributions of the special "Cour d'Assises" : Comments ()
Andrew
- #13 - 2008-03-18 18:13 - (Reply)
Hi, Comments ()
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