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Pentagon on Afghanistan: We Got to Go it Alone, Basically...Posted by Joerg Wolf in Transatlantic Relations, US Foreign Policy on Saturday, May 3. 2008 Due to a shortfall in contributions from NATO allies, the Pentagon is considering sending as many as 7,000 more US troops to Afghanistan, write Steven Lee Myers and Thom Shanker in the New York Times:
Related posts on Atlantic Review: • Bumper Stickers Slogans: What is the Purpose of NATO? • Afghanistan: Merkel Has "No Time" for Burden Sharing Proposals • Rupert Murdoch: Alliance Based on Shared Values, not Geography
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Zyme
- #1 - 2008-05-05 14:14 - (Reply)
There was an article recently about a possible delay for german reinforcements for Afghanistan - because of general elections in one of Germany´s 16 states, namely Bavaria.
Álvaro Degives-Más
- #1.1 - 2008-05-05 22:25 - (Reply)
Actually, it speaks more to your understanding of the importance of "regional politics" in the decentralized republic that is Germany.
Zyme
- #1.1.1 - 2008-05-05 22:51 - (Reply)
"Actually, it speaks more to your understanding of the importance of "regional politics" in the decentralized republic that is Germany."
Álvaro Degives-Más
- #1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-06 14:03 - (Reply)
No, it wouldn't be normal in the context of the US.
Pat Patterson
- #1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-07 06:08 - (Reply)
In case of an open senatorial or congressional seat the governor of the affected state can simply appoint and then wait for the next scheduled election. Special elections to fill these vacancies are rare to be almost nonexistent and in many states removing a congressman or senator is simply not possible. Plus any vote scheduled without those two hypothetical vacancies would still go forward, obviously a quorum is still necessary, and the vote would still be on the basis of the majority of the votes cast. The states with the vacancies would actually be at a huge disadvantage if they had to wait for a special election thus appointments for the remaining term of office in most cases is the norm.
Pat Patterson
- #1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-07 08:33 - (Reply)
Sorry, in the first sentence "congressional" was a typo!
Álvaro Degives-Más
- #1.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-07 18:05 - (Reply)
No problem - I understood that you referred to the Senate. Yes, special elections are rare - but that's why I put that (rare) situation in a hypothetical example, to clarify how "regional" elections can have important effects on national government. Perhaps another illustrative example of such an effect, albeit evidently not tied to the legislative side, is (clearly ignoring this year's highly unusual protracted Democratic primaries) the preponderance of Eastern states on the Presidential candidacies of both parties. Either way, it's neither exclusive to (Western) European countries, nor even that unusual to see regional politics getting somehow stubbornly in the way of national politics.
Álvaro Degives-Más
- #1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-07 18:12 - (Reply)
Now it's my turn to rectify a typo! By "a party that gingerly and merrily sends a cabinet home" I meant: "a (political) party that sends a cabinet home on a fickle whim"...
Pat Patterson
- #1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2 - 2008-05-08 01:35 - (Reply)
I guess I would agree that on the purely local level the US and Europe share some commonality. but the fact must remain, though I would be perfectly happy to see contradictory information, is that a local politician is essentially a product of his party through the, I'll use English terminology, selection lists. While in the US, though we have an entrenched two party system, the Constitution made sure that party rule by coalition is impossible. The goal was to create a system that the representatives owed their loyalty to their constituents as they were directly elected by them from slates of candidates running as members of the same party. Not as a fait accompli of being the sole and annointed candidate of any particular party.
Joe Noory
- #1.1.1.1.2 - 2008-05-08 17:10 - (Reply)
Last but not least: the current US administration has pushed the envelope on "executive privilege" to Nixon-era proportions, also and especially on military decisions. That monarchical model of near-exclusive decision making ran out of fashion in Western Europe after 1918 (excluding its resurgence at the hands of fascists in Germany, Italy and Spain, of course).
Álvaro Degives-Más
- #1.1.1.1.2.1 - 2008-05-08 18:22 - (Reply)
(I'm sorry I got carried away... I'm typing between sessions, and it just kept growing and growing - kudos for your patience if you manage to read through it!)
Álvaro Degives-Más
- #1.1.1.1.2.1.1 - 2008-05-08 18:27 - (Reply)
(Forgot to add: by "clear UNSC mandate" in the case of the FYR campaign I don't mean a mandate by resolution - that was obviously impossible with Russia's evident veto - but the overwhelming majority for intervention there except for Russia's loud 'nyet')
Joe Noory
- #1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1 - 2008-05-08 19:06 - (Reply)
The death penalty was eliminated against the will of the majority, and happened in the 80's in most european countries. It had nothing to do with post-war reprisals.
Álvaro Degives-Más
- #1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-08 19:37 - (Reply)
QUOTE: That's three intriguing statements in a row.The death penalty was eliminated against the will of the majority, and happened in the 80's in most european countries. It had nothing to do with post-war reprisals. Both the EU and the Council of Europe have abolition as a conditio sine qua non for accession, with a moratorium only being accepted as a temporary (i.e. transitional) situation. So, that's probably how you computed your 1980 date as the one on which "most" countries abolished, given that the accession dates of member states lie after that. However, the acquis communautaire (which among many, many things enshrines abolition) is the whole core of accession; it's terribly disingenuous to argue that it goes against a majority, as accession can't take place against a majority. Furthermore, I didn't claim it had anything to do with post-WWII reprisals: I stated that, in the aftermath of WWII, reprisal executions (i.e., of Nazis and their collaborateurs) showed a brief spike, and that shortly afterwards the move toward abolition strode forward to today's EU-wide situation. Here's a link to a pertinent book for more information, in case you'd like to bring up the issue again. As to NATO being perfunctory and/or tough to find on a map: that goes for an awful lot of places outside the US, also including Iraq and Afghanistan. Thought I'd mention those two, also (snark with a wink)
Joe Noory
- #1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-08 23:19 - (Reply)
I'm impressed by just how very much you know, but you're being evasive. I'm talking about the pre-real-start-of-the-EU, post-WW2 ACTUAL banishment of the death penalty in the 80s and 90s that the majority of populations opposed - not all of these random citations to Council of Europe declarations and postwar reprisals.
Álvaro Degives-Más
- #1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-09 01:53 - (Reply)
I suppose you saw the infamous YouTube of those cheeky Australians looking for help to find Iraq on a world map, so I won't show you that again - but it's still a fertile theme.
Joe Noory
- #1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-09 14:10 - (Reply)
They abolished it as late as 96, but, like France, had done that as a formality since it was rendered unusable a decade earlier.
Álvaro Degives-Más
- #1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-09 17:52 - (Reply)
Governments "shove things down people's throats"? I'm sorry John, but that's a line that sounds like it's taken straight from Populism for Dummies. If you review that statement more carefully, you'll realize it's a negation of the fundamental principle of democracy. Take for instance taxes, broadly defined as taxes, contributions and social premiums. Do people like to pay them? Few do; in fact, my Dad is one of them, who appreciates paying taxes because he considers it the price of civilization, and moreover, he feels it signifies he earned money and made a profit the preceding fiscal year.
Joe Noory
- #1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-09 20:45 - (Reply)
I'm not talking about taxes and everything else. Did your father vote on matters that involve taxation? Probably not. It's not the tax, it's the society buying into it by affirmation that I'm talking about.
Álvaro Degives-Más
- #1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-09 22:49 - (Reply)
First of all, apologies for mistyping your name, Joe. I should've hit the "Preview" button first.
Joe Noory
- #1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-09 23:33 - (Reply)
If you'll recall, you raised the matter of taxation, US healthcare, etc., operating on assumptions as if to force someone to address them or allow the usual bien pensent stuff about the USA stand.
Álvaro Degives-Más
- #1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-10 00:10 - (Reply)
QUOTE: I don't lightly arrive at this conclusion, but either your own memory is failing you (as you were the first one to raise taxesVAT), or you totally misread what I posted (baffling, given the length to which I've gone, precisely to avoid misunderstandings) or you're misrepresenting it, for whichever reason (on which I won't speculate any further).If you'll recall, you raised the matter of taxation, US healthcare, etc., operating on assumptions as if to force someone to address them or allow the usual bien pensent stuff about the USA stand. You brought up VAT to "exemplify" how, in your opinion, things in Europe are "imposed" by government on people, Joe; I merely commented on that. However, beyond what probably is an honest failure of memory, to inject intent by suggesting I brought it up, as you just did, so as to force someone to address them or allow the usual bien pensent stuff about the USA stand is anywhere less than honest. Quickly, therefore, three final comments: 1) if your friend "made the mistake" of hiring an employee and managed to go bankrupt, the more fundamental mistake your friend made was to run a business while being patently unprepared for business life. Apparently, consequences ensued; I believe a more appropriate response here would be tant pis. Such is life. 2) As to your awkward limitation of available options to "So we can count NOT RIOTING as a yes vote?" I'd say that at best the exactly opposite might, perhaps, hold: rioting counts as a "no vote" of sorts. Even so, rioting isn't deemed either acceptable or less so a substitute for voting - not in the US, and not anywhere I know in Europe. 3) Lastly: you indicate that in your opinion misconceptions "can't be corrected with patient explanation". I do, however, note a mild irony in your plaintive note regarding stubborn ignorance and/or stupidity and/or malevolence (not exactly synonymous with "Stepford children" but soit...) coexisting with your denial of the fertility of exchanges, of the use for education. Not only do I on principle reject such a notion of unmovable ignorance; I deem it amusingly contradictory with your own engagement here, precisely on a forum created to further such border crossing education.
Joe Noory
- #1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-10 00:45 - (Reply)
1) No, he made the mistake of hiring someone. With that hire, a rude young person who offended his client, he made the mistake of hiring someone in an environment where employer mandates are punitive and arbitrary.
Andrew Z
- #2 - 2008-05-07 04:12 - (Reply)
Sending an additional 7,000 troops would be great...if we had them. Fred Kaplan notes that we just don't have these troops right now:
Don S
- #2.2 - 2008-05-07 12:44 - (Reply)
"Something has to give, and I think NATO allies in Europe are in a stronger position right now."
Álvaro Degives-Más
- #2.2.1 - 2008-05-07 18:29 - (Reply)
While that's an understandable analysis, it does align with those who are wary of a NATO serving the US' national interests.
Joe Noory
- #2.2.1.1 - 2008-05-07 19:28 - (Reply)
When a European continental military entity emerges, not only will there be no need for NATO, but it will likely disintegrate to a titular status at best. The single entity with the mojority population (the EU) will not represent the bulk of the effective force (the US). It will leave Turkey and Canada dangling, and along with the US, will defer to independant, multilateral excercises, because under EU leadership no action could be taking while the political miasma hems and haws over whatever political, military, or humanitarian disaster is at hand.
Don S
- #2.2.1.1.1 - 2008-05-07 20:19 - (Reply)
"And in a way, that's the EU's problem. They can postpone losing their virginity forever because the U.S. won't stop saying "We'll be here when you need us"."
Joe Noory
- #2.2.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-08 00:18 - (Reply)
In a world with global trade, distributed communications, economic dependency, the worry is not Brazil, it's the general stability of key crossroads on the world. On top of that, everyone has something to lose.
Don S
- #2.2.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-08 13:33 - (Reply)
"it's the general stability of key crossroads on the world. On top of that, everyone has something to lose."
Álvaro Degives-Más
- #2.2.1.1.2 - 2008-05-07 20:51 - (Reply)
Eh... If on the one hand you engage the hypothesis of a continental alternative to NATO, what's Turkey got to do there? They're not even getting into the EU, certainly not during the next generation. They're more relevant in their own region, where they probably ought to set up their own comfort zone. And what about Canada? It's not exactly on the same continent. I presuppose it's straightforward to assume that such a hypothetical demise of NATO, the US and Canada likely will do something. But the irrevocable cost of a breakup of NATO will be that whatever substitutes it, won't take over NATO's role but instead serve the "national interest" of the respective constituent blocks.
Don S
- #3 - 2008-05-07 23:11 - (Reply)
"The "average European" isn't as preoccupied as the "average American" is with the firepower aspect of NATO; instead, the notion is more economy of scale"
Álvaro Degives-Más
- #3.1 - 2008-05-07 23:34 - (Reply)
That "question of where 'economy of scale' leaves off and 'let the Yanks do it - they are already and we can get it when we need it'" almost answers itself in analogy to the fundamental cause for the rift: "national interest". NATO is losing its appeal to a growing number of people in the US (no matter whether there's intrinsic reason to reevaluate) because they look at the bottom line. Unsurprisingly, the perspective from the other side of the Atlantic yields the same conclusion to such a myopic approach.
Joe Noory
- #4 - 2008-05-08 22:27 - (Reply)
It looks like the "Party of God" is Clinging to God and Guns again. Is UNIFIL 2 going to step in? Add Comment
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