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"Europe Deserves Obama More"Posted by Joerg Wolf in European Issues, German Politics, Transatlantic Relations on Thursday, May 29. 2008 Benjam
He also quotes Roger Cohen in the New York Times, who describes Obama as an online phenomenon, jumping national borders and "stirring as much buzz in Berlin as he does back home." Well, that's quite a bit of an exaggeration, but there is probably indeed more popular support for Barack Obama than for Tony Blair for the position of EU President. (See Nanne's post on Contention About the New "EU President") Obama is considering a visit to Berlin, says Karsten Voigt, the German government's envoy for German-American relations, according to DW World. I doubt that Obama will indeed visit Germany during the hot election campaign. He already has won more than 80% of votes from the US expats living in Germany and registered as Democrats, I believe. It would be great, however, if Obama would take time of from the campaign trail and visit Europe in order to put to rest the criticism from Steve Clemons (and myself) regarding his Lack of Real Interest in Transatlantic Cooperation:
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Joe Noory
- #1 - 2008-05-29 22:14 - (Reply)
Who here really think Europeans would elect a minority to a national or European leadership position? The appeal that Europeans have found in Barack Obama is based entirely on the fact that they know they themselves wouldn't have to make that sort of decision, and they know it wouldn't be color-blind.
influx
- #2 - 2008-05-29 22:46 - (Reply)
"Who here really think Europeans would elect a minority to a national or European leadership position?"
influx
- #2.1 - 2008-05-29 22:55 - (Reply)
Sorry, but forgot to call complete BS on this statement: "The appeal that Europeans have found in Barack Obama is based entirely on the fact that they know they themselves wouldn't have to make that sort of decision."
quo vadis
- #2.1.1 - 2008-05-29 23:27 - (Reply)
So what exactly is Obama's appeal to Europeans?
Joerg - Atlantic Review
- #2.1.1.1 - 2008-05-29 23:44 - (Reply)
Since when do voters base their decision on experience of the candidates and their qualifications? ;-)
Joe Noory
- #2.1.2 - 2008-05-29 23:57 - (Reply)
Don't you think it rather straightforward to think that they don't really need to know anything about the man's platform or likely cabinet appointments if he's running for president of another country?
Pamela
- #2.1.2.1 - 2008-05-30 20:00 - (Reply)
"In fact, were non-Americans to find a great deal of interest in a certain candiate in the US, and the population generally prefer to find certain diminution of interests on the part of America in the world, the signal sent to the US population by their elation is that the candidate they getting a woody over is more likely to be bad for the intrest of the United States, not good for it in the most basic objective terms."
Joe Noory
- #2.1.2.1.1 - 2008-05-31 00:29 - (Reply)
Yes, it was called Operation Clark County, and it featured British leftist deigning painfully to talk to people who didn't drink from their cup and calling random numbers in a county in the state of Ohio. The notion that they were meddling empiriously didn't dawn on them for a few weeks.
Kuch
- #2.2 - 2008-05-30 19:10 - (Reply)
..."Now, how many African-Americans have been members of the US senate? Five? Well, I rest my case. I am not saying that Europe fares any better, but it's simply not true that the US is a beacon of race equality when it comes to their government."
Joerg - Atlantic Review
- #2.2.1 - 2008-05-30 23:09 - (Reply)
@ Kuch
Elisabetta
- #2.2.1.1 - 2008-05-31 04:44 - (Reply)
I am calling bullshit here. The German political system like the Brits runs a list system. There are no primaries or independent intra-party democratic elections to settle upon a choice candidate. The party head honchos decide who gets on a list behind closed doors and if the electorate wants to vote for the SPD, they get the Turk. Another question, how many of the Turks and or immigrants are appointed by the party as their allotment of non-seated representives as opposed to running for a seat on a direct vote?
Pat Patterson
- #2.2.1.1.1 - 2008-05-31 07:02 - (Reply)
Are you suggesting that the European parliamentary system promotes people based on a quota rather than the Us system where that local minority better be able to get a majority of the votes or his district and know where all the bodies are buried?
Elisabetta
- #2.2.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-31 09:11 - (Reply)
Are you suggesting that the European parliamentary system promotes people based on a quota rather than the Us system where that local minority better be able to get a majority of the votes or his district and know where all the bodies are buried?
Pat Patterson
- #2.2.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-31 14:00 - (Reply)
I was trying to agree by hyperbole and on second look I seem to have failed at both. Making clear my agreement and the lack of recognized hyperbole. But bringing up Harold Ford reminds me that my impression of him was always favorable and I had thought years ago, without any major slips, he would have become that black candidate that could truly garner the neccessary white votes in the South to become president. But I suppose being a Blue Dog and voting for the Iraq resolution consigned him to apostate Hell as far as most Democrats were concerned.
adaniel
- #3 - 2008-05-29 23:02 - (Reply)
I think it is indeed a strange to think that Europeans would not elect somebody from a minority. Mr Sarkozy, the president of France is half Jewish, half Hungarian by origin. I think this would have happen in Europe or in the US a generation ago. The US is still taking pride on considering a woman candidate for the presidency. Germany has a great leader and she is a woman. It has also happened in Europe that the top two jobs (president and prime minister) were filled by women (two of them and they were unrelated!). The majority of the Spanish Cabinet are women. It is the American electorate that is preoccupied by the gender and the race of the candidates.
quo vadis
- #3.1 - 2008-05-29 23:52 - (Reply)
I will point out that the most powerful woman in the world is African-American and a Republican at that.
Joerg - Atlantic Review
- #3.1.1 - 2008-05-30 00:28 - (Reply)
Well, Forbes thinks that Angela Merkel is most powerful.
quo vadis
- #3.1.1.1 - 2008-05-30 00:47 - (Reply)
Power doesn't imply positive achievement. No woman has had greater influence over global events over the last few years than Rice, for better or worse - regardless of what Forbes says.
Joerg - Atlantic Review
- #3.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-30 00:58 - (Reply)
What influence on global events did she have?
quo vadis
- #3.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-30 02:24 - (Reply)
I give Rice as much credit for the planning, promotion and execution of the Iraq war as Rumsfeld and Cheney.
David
- #3.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-30 17:10 - (Reply)
"I give Rice as much credit for the planning, promotion and execution of the Iraq war as Rumsfeld and Cheney. "
John in Michigan, USA
- #4 - 2008-05-30 04:09 - (Reply)
The real question is, what has Obama done to deserve a major political position in either Europe or the US?
Joe Noory
- #4.1 - 2008-06-02 00:39 - (Reply)
perhaps this is the fundamental difference which requires an ocean between us. no-one "deserves" a position. ever. life doesn't need to be as stiched-up and engineered as europeans seem to crave it to be. talk about sad...
John in Michigan, USA
- #4.1.1 - 2008-06-02 03:37 - (Reply)
Nah, I don't see it that way...there are plenty of people who feel entitled to things in the US...Obama is running against one of them in fact...
Zyme
- #5 - 2008-05-30 11:13 - (Reply)
"In fact, were non-Americans to find a great deal of interest in a certain candiate in the US, and the population generally prefer to find certain diminution of interests on the part of America in the world, the signal sent to the US population by their elation is that the candidate they getting a woody over is more likely to be bad for the intrest of the United States, not good for it in the most basic objective terms."
Joe Noory
- #5.1 - 2008-05-30 11:29 - (Reply)
They'd prefer an empty suit anyway. Otherwise the idea of handicapping America with the same evasiveness of fussy and ineffectual little social campaigns that they undergo probably appeals to some as well.
Joe Noory
- #5.2 - 2008-05-30 15:25 - (Reply)
Also electing the leader by the colleagues provides a good basis for rewarding national politicians who enforced EU integration against considerable opposition.
Zyme
- #5.2.1 - 2008-05-30 15:48 - (Reply)
Wouldn´t you agree that being able to vote politicians only makes sense when they feel somewhat bound to their mandates? Here they are not only free to abuse whatever political anouncements they have made before the election and disappoint every expectation they created. They also use this opportunity quite frequently.
Joe Noory
- #5.2.1.1 - 2008-05-30 20:15 - (Reply)
Good propaganda has never hurt a good cause
Zyme
- #5.2.1.1.1 - 2008-05-31 00:26 - (Reply)
"You may want to rethink about how germaine that really is. It's practically third world."
Joe Noory
- #5.2.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-31 00:33 - (Reply)
The difficult circumstances that you're talking about is the fact that there is no vocal willing majority for it, but that notwithstanding the public will have no actual say in what's being imposed on them. Here, we call the people who do this 'parents of young children', owing to the fact that children, like the European population in this case, have few rights and are treated like their free will is a danger to themselves.
quo vadis
- #5.2.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-31 01:18 - (Reply)
Zyme's attitude supports my theory of the fundamental difference between Americans and Europeans when it comes to our relationship to our governments and how we see our place in our respective societies.
John in Michigan, USA
- #5.2.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-31 02:54 - (Reply)
vadis: I think that is a good rough analogy.
Zyme
- #5.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-31 11:49 - (Reply)
I would argue that the EU is not a philosophical but a rather technical creation. It´s main role never was to spread enlightenment. Its primary role in the beginning was to secure peace in Europe. Then its role was to enhance economical relations and increase our wealth.
John in Michigan, USA
- #5.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-31 13:45 - (Reply)
"I would argue that the EU is not a philosophical but a rather technical creation." I interpret this as roughly equivalent to saying, the EU project is motivated by issues and questions of technique or process, and not motivated by a new philosophy or a new ideology. And I basically agree.
Zyme
- #5.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-05-31 19:43 - (Reply)
"when a Eurocrat wants to find out what Europeans think about an issue, he does a scientific survey rather than holding an election."
Pat Patterson
- #5.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-02 01:08 - (Reply)
That sounds like a very big Yugoslavia?
quo vadis
- #5.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2 - 2008-05-31 21:40 - (Reply)
"Since religious authority and heredity is no longer the source of authority for the new governing class, what is their source of authority?"
Don S
- #5.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2.1 - 2008-06-05 20:44 - (Reply)
"Anytime you create a power structure people will try to exploit it for their own gain at the expense of those subject to that power. The more comprehensive and less accountable that power structure, the more easily and completely it can be subverted. "
Zyme
- #5.2.1.1.1.1.2 - 2008-05-31 11:40 - (Reply)
"Here, we call the people who do this 'parents of young children', owing to the fact that children, like the European population in this case, have few rights and are treated like their free will is a danger to themselves."
Pat Patterson
- #6 - 2008-05-30 17:38 - (Reply)
That "...commission of experts" sounds vaguely familiar. Could that be a phrase from the pages of scientific socialism referring to the intelligentsia of the vanguard of the proletariat? But a motto, "We know it hurts but we only have your best interests at heart," unless of course you are a Scottish fisherman or a Roma.
Pamela
- #7 - 2008-05-30 18:48 - (Reply)
"Europe DESERVES Obama More"
Reid of America
- #8 - 2008-05-30 20:45 - (Reply)
Obama will lose all 50 states. The anti-Obama campaign by Clinton has deeply hurt Obama even though the attacks have been mild. Once Obama is nominated and his hardcore leftist past and current associations are made public he will lose all 50 states.
Elisabetta
- #9 - 2008-05-30 20:55 - (Reply)
A Momus reference....nice. Perhaps, I should get my old Sarah and Creation records out "to feel his vibe". Really, anyone whose most famous song is "Murders hope of women" is a pretentious twat.
ADMIN
- #10 - 2008-05-30 23:10 - (Reply)
Please note that by default the comments in this blog are threaded rather than linear, i.e. some of the latest comments and responses to comments are not at the bottom, but in the middle.
adaniel
- #11 - 2008-05-31 15:19 - (Reply)
Certainly Europe fell in love with Obama before we learned if he likes us at all. Obama does not have a transatlantic policy and it is very difficult to see if he would become a trustworthy ally of the European Union.
John in Michigan, USA
- #12 - 2008-05-31 15:40 - (Reply)
"Europe Deserves Obama More"
Fuchur
- #12.1 - 2008-05-31 21:07 - (Reply)
Although the analogy is far from perfect, the best analogy is the European Jews.
David
- #13 - 2008-06-01 00:25 - (Reply)
"Obama is nominated and his hardcore leftist past and current associations are made public he will lose all 50 states."
John in Michigan, USA
- #13.1 - 2008-06-01 01:28 - (Reply)
No-one is calling him a Muslim, even though according to non-Western standards, he is, as he now admits. Obama also admits that when he was younger, the more radical the cause the more attractive he found it.
influx
- #13.2 - 2008-06-01 01:32 - (Reply)
"No-one is calling him a Muslim, even though according to non-Western standards, he is, as he now admits."
John in Michigan, USA
- #13.2.1 - 2008-06-01 02:32 - (Reply)
Thank you, I think?!?
Pamela
- #13.2.1.1 - 2008-06-01 14:44 - (Reply)
"Calling someone Nation of Islam (NOI), as Pamela did, is not the same as calling them Muslim. "
John in Michigan, USA
- #13.2.1.1.1 - 2008-06-01 19:15 - (Reply)
Pamela,
John in Michigan, USA
- #13.2.1.1.2 - 2008-06-01 19:41 - (Reply)
Wow. I read too fast and almost missed:
Pat Patterson
- #13.2.1.1.2.1 - 2008-06-01 20:34 - (Reply)
Sen. Obama has placed the national organization of the UCC in a terrible bind. Rev. John Thoms, the denomination president, said that, "...the paiinful reality is that many candidates and public officials now find it nearly impossible to be an active member of a particular religious community," But I find no incidence where a candidate has severed from his congregation and also denounced them has occurred except for the senator.
Pamela
- #13.2.1.1.2.2 - 2008-06-02 20:40 - (Reply)
It could be the legacy of MLK finally re-asserting itself against the legacy of Malcolm X.
Pamela
- #13.2.1.1.2.2.1.1 - 2008-06-02 22:48 - (Reply)
"But isn't he censured as a result?"
John in Michigan, USA
- #13.2.1.1.2.2.2 - 2008-06-02 23:25 - (Reply)
"Oh Puh-leeze"
Pamela
- #13.2.1.1.2.2.2.1 - 2008-06-03 11:57 - (Reply)
"Don't worry, I've not drunk the kool-aid and started pretending that he actually *is* this new person he pretends to be. I'm suggesting that, unlike Sen. Clinton's triangulation, it might not be 100% cynical."
Joe Noory
- #14 - 2008-06-03 00:36 - (Reply)
You'll note that the title isn't "Deserves an Obama" but "Europe Deserves him MORE", as though there was some complex requiring something to be "taken away" from those dastardly Americans, who are, after all, there to kidnap your children in order to drink their blood.
Reid of America
- #15 - 2008-06-04 01:04 - (Reply)
It appears that Obama has the nomination.
David
- #16 - 2008-06-04 01:55 - (Reply)
Hey Reid, I wish you'd take your white hood off long enough so we can get a look at your face.
Joe Noory
- #16.1 - 2008-06-04 15:32 - (Reply)
Really? How does that deeply racist argument the left made about Colin Powell not "being black enough" because his parents were immigrants and not part of the mainstream black population fit into this? Or is it a case of his characterization of what one "class faction" of the democrats has been saying about the other, now that Hillary supporters had to deal with another faction using race, not gender as a form of irrational emotional leverage to guilt trip votes out of people?
Reid of America
- #17 - 2008-06-04 02:22 - (Reply)
Hey David, You are setting back race relations by conflating criticism of Obama with racism. Obama's unelectability isn't related to his race but his radical past and associations.
Elisabetta
- #19 - 2008-06-04 09:11 - (Reply)
I apologize. That should have read--Reid: why do you hate the black peoples on the internets?
John in Michigan, USA
- #19.1 - 2008-06-04 17:32 - (Reply)
Elisabetta,
joe
- #20 - 2008-06-04 17:42 - (Reply)
Reid
David
- #20.1 - 2008-06-05 01:38 - (Reply)
Joe,
John in Michigan, USA
- #20.1.1 - 2008-06-05 08:38 - (Reply)
"What do you do for the democratic process other ridicule those who are participating?"
joe
- #20.1.1.1 - 2008-06-05 13:13 - (Reply)
David,
John in Michigan, USA
- #21 - 2008-06-04 19:08 - (Reply)
I just watched an interview Shelby Steele gave in January, 2008 in support of his book "A Bound Man: Why We Are Excited About Obama and Why He Can't Win". Shelby Steele is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, which makes him a Black conservative.
Reid of America
- #21.1 - 2008-06-04 20:22 - (Reply)
Because of the lack of accomplishments and political record we don't know what Obama is all about.
David
- #21.1.1 - 2008-06-05 00:29 - (Reply)
Reid, take your wooden crosses and gasoline and go home. Today most of America is celebrating a historic event: an African-American winning the Democratic nomination. 7,000 articles in English on Google News. And the world is celebrating along with us. Check out the site Watching America.
Pat Patterson
- #21.1.1.1 - 2008-06-05 04:20 - (Reply)
And the sun, honestly, will come up tomorrow. Most people in America are probably disappointed that the fun is over and now the droning and self-righteousness will begin. But since Sen. Obama was supposed to transcend race then isn't celebrating his being the first black man to win the nomination of a big party a regression to racial one upsmanship? But the fact that it was the Democrats, the apologists for racism, segregation and the Klan since the Civil War, who chose a black candidate does go along way to making amends.
Pamela
- #21.2 - 2008-06-05 15:44 - (Reply)
Shelby Steele is always on my 'must read' list ever since I read "The Content of Our Character", so I'm familiar with the argument in the book.
joe
- #22 - 2008-06-05 05:35 - (Reply)
Reid
Don S
- #22.1 - 2008-06-06 15:43 - (Reply)
'can America survive an OBH presidency. The other outcome is can America survive OBH not being elected president.'
joe
- #22.1.1 - 2008-06-06 19:29 - (Reply)
Don,
Pamela
- #23 - 2008-06-05 15:34 - (Reply)
David, your reaction to criticism of BHO bodes ill for consideration of your support for him on the merits. |
