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"Germany's Intolerant and Militaristic Culture"Posted by Joerg Wolf in German Politics on Wednesday, June 11. 2008 "Support for the far-right National Democratic Party quadrupled in local elections in the eastern state of Saxony on Sunday. In the village of Reinhardtsdorf-Schöna, one in four voters chose the NPD," writes Spiegel International. Michael van der Galien of the PoliGazette blames Germany's culture for these election results. He also claims that most of his Dutch compatriots "basically believe that what happened in World War II was not an 'accident,' but a logical result of Germany's intolerant and militaristic culture." Such accusations will not lead to more German troops for Afghanistan, more burden sharing within NATO or a higher defense spending, which have been long-standing demands by the United States and other NATO allies. Instead these accusations contribute to the dominant feeling among the majority of Germans that we should not participate in any wars on foreign soil anymore. Well, the Dutch press -- in contrast to their US or Canadian counterparts -- has not called for more German troops for Afghanistan. I thought the reason was that they understand that there just is not enough support among the rather pacifist (a better term might be: "war-weary") German public. Though, perhaps van der Galien is right and "the Dutch" are really concerned about the next invasion by their xenophobic and militaristic neighbors and therefore they don't want the Germans to play a stronger military role in Afghanistan, but I doubt it. I think he exaggerates Dutch concerns regarding Germany. Welcome! You are reading the ATLANTIC REVIEW -- a Press Digest on Transatlantic Relations combined with commentary and analysis by four young professionals from Germany, the Netherlands and the United States. More about us. The horizontal menu bar at the top helps to navigate this site. Subscribe to one of our RSS-Feeds or to our newsletter, which is emailed twice per month.Trackbacks
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franchie
- #1 - 2008-06-11 20:15 - (Reply)
"basically believe that what happened in World War II was not an 'accident,' but a logical result of Germany's intolerant and militaristic culture."
Don S
- #2 - 2008-06-11 20:20 - (Reply)
I don;t think things have changed that much except that Germans have gone from intolerantly militaristic to intolerantly anti-militaristic.
Joe Noory
- #3 - 2008-06-11 20:32 - (Reply)
I think that it's hard to use a theory based in history 6 decades past to cite war weariness or the public humiliation and economic causes of Hitler's rise. The war-weariness is trying to get a grip around the nerves felt by the current Afghanistan deployment and Germany's new role in the western world in the absence of the Berlin Wall. On the part of the public it's justified.
Don S
- #4 - 2008-06-11 20:36 - (Reply)
BTW, this kind of thing is a cheap shot, and intended to be so. When a person gets angry enough they tend to try to drive a nail into what hurts most, and for Germans that is the subject van der Galien touched on.
Joerg - Atlantic Review
- #4.1 - 2008-06-11 20:43 - (Reply)
"what WOULD do any good in terms of getting the Germans off their butts and stop standing on the sideline being holier than thou?
Don S
- #4.1.1 - 2008-06-11 20:51 - (Reply)
Joerg, as far as I can see EVERYTHING which has been attempted has elicited precisly the same response - or so close as makes no difference. 'Wait another generation for the mood to change' seems to be the mantra. If this endures another decade (much less another generation) this will split like a pair of cheap pants.
Joerg - Atlantic Review
- #4.1.1.1 - 2008-06-11 20:57 - (Reply)
@ Don
Don S
- #4.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-11 21:03 - (Reply)
The mood has changed you say. My question is has the 'mood' changed for the better - or for the worse.
Joerg - Atlantic Review
- #4.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-11 21:07 - (Reply)
What do you prefer: 3000 German troops in Afghanistan today or no troops, but a big cheque like with the Iraq war in 1991, i.e. Germans, Japanese, and Saudis pay, while Americans fight and die.
Joe Noory
- #4.1.1.1.2 - 2008-06-11 22:31 - (Reply)
Agreed - and I think don is right about people using images and allusions to dispense cheap shots. It's dead wrong.
franchie
- #4.1.1.2 - 2008-06-11 20:58 - (Reply)
may-be someone ought to allow them to become hashish searchers/smockers :lol:
Joerg - Atlantic Review
- #5 - 2008-06-11 20:54 - (Reply)
@ Joe Noory
Joe Noory
- #5.1 - 2008-06-11 22:02 - (Reply)
I have yet to meet a 400 year old person. I think that a large part of the German public hasn't really had to think about the consequences of having troops deployed outside of Europe, and navigating in the course of 12-18 months what most of the rest of europe and america could spend much longer contemplating is enough to make them weary to a degree. Taken all at once, tt's a moral maze.
Joerg - Atlantic Review
- #5.1.1 - 2008-06-11 23:31 - (Reply)
Yes, of course, and if the Russians would today present a threat like the Soviets did in the past, then you would get the same mentality back.
Don S
- #6 - 2008-06-11 22:22 - (Reply)
"But at least you know what not to do, which is reminding us of our evil past and describing our current culture as militaristic."
Sijbren de Jong
- #7 - 2008-06-11 22:26 - (Reply)
As a Dutch national livig in Berlin, I think Joerg's analysis is right and the one by Michael van der Galien is blatently false.
Nanne
- #8 - 2008-06-11 22:57 - (Reply)
Joerg,
Elisabetta
- #9 - 2008-06-12 02:44 - (Reply)
The NPD wins a majority in some kaff in Saxony. The old commies and the anti-fascist student league put on a demo. They fight. Hand-wringing in the press. Concensus reached: neo-nazis are bad, but I wish the anti-NPD types weren't so violent or dangerous looking.
Fred
- #10 - 2008-06-12 02:57 - (Reply)
Don,
Don S
- #10.1 - 2008-06-12 11:58 - (Reply)
"you calling Germans shrill, annoying and preachy is in my opinion not unlike the pot calling the kettle black."
Anonymous
- #10.1.2 - 2008-06-15 03:14 - (Reply)
"I quit making suggestions years ago. Sorry, my experience is that whatever I suggest Germans will go out and do the opposuite,"
Don S
- #10.1.2.2 - 2008-06-17 19:38 - (Reply)
"Grow a moustache man! Moustaches are today's black among evil-doers. That way you can be ole Addie or Stalin. That should qualify with most anyone."
Joe Noory
- #10.1.2.2.1 - 2008-06-17 22:58 - (Reply)
To quote P.J. O'Rourke: "I don't get worked up when someone calls me a Nazi. After all, when have you ever heard about a woman fantasizing about being ravished by a Social Studies teacher?"
John in Michigan, USA
- #10.1.2.3 - 2008-06-18 13:58 - (Reply)
Fred,
Anonymous
- #10.1.2.3.1 - 2008-06-19 02:30 - (Reply)
Do Germans call him "Addie" or does that only make sense in English?
Fred
- #10.1.2.3.1.1 - 2008-06-19 09:54 - (Reply)
Do Germans call him "Addie" or does that only make sense in English?
Zyme
- #11 - 2008-06-12 07:19 - (Reply)
I think we have to distinguish here. What is meant by a militaristic Germany? Certainly not the people, as most even were not fancy about war in 1939 - the majority just fulfilled their job more devotetly than other peoples would have.
Michael van der Galien
- #12 - 2008-06-12 10:27 - (Reply)
"The Dutch public is in no way convinced of a militaristic culture having been the reason for World War II. Insinuating this is nothing short of absurd and lacks a feel for reality."
influx
- #12.1 - 2008-06-12 11:09 - (Reply)
Good to hear your prejudices were confirmed. Reminds me of people coming back to Europe from the US complaining about SUVs and fat people. I guess it's reassuring to find the things you're looking for.
Zyme
- #12.2 - 2008-06-12 13:59 - (Reply)
What is it with the Neerlandais ? Why are you obsessed with your eastern neighbour?
Joe Noory
- #12.3 - 2008-06-12 16:42 - (Reply)
This whole thing is just cracked, and in a way it speaks to Joerg's other current blog about punching bags. One way the US is a good useful distraction is for just this kind of thing: the traditional emnities about cultural images that Europeans have always slighted one another as a personal insult.
Pat Patterson
- #12.3.1 - 2008-06-12 18:21 - (Reply)
Well, at least the Romans were right in that as soon as they allowed Greeks bearing sauces the Empire went into decline!
joe
- #13 - 2008-06-13 07:48 - (Reply)
Joerg,
Joerg - Atlantic Review
- #13.1 - 2008-06-13 08:36 - (Reply)
@ Joe
Don S
- #13.1.1 - 2008-06-13 14:58 - (Reply)
"Most of the big wars we participated in (or started) were wrong."
Elisabetta
- #13.1.1.1 - 2008-06-13 20:07 - (Reply)
The 1864 war of aggressive northern expansion against the Danes was unjust and counter-productive, as well as its extension against Saxony and Austria-Hungary in 1867.
Don S
- #13.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-17 12:26 - (Reply)
Elisabetta,
Elisabetta
- #13.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-17 13:07 - (Reply)
It is not often that I disagree with you Don, but I am. The use of ethnic or linguistic as the basis for legitimizing territorial acquisitions in the mid 19th century is incorrect. "Germany" itself was a hodge-podge of independent nations with long-standing minorities (Sorbs, Poles, Czechs, Ruthenians...) not to mention the k.u.k umbrellaesque Imperial crown.
Don S
- #13.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-17 14:15 - (Reply)
Interesti8ng points, Elisabeth, but I think when you examine the larger picture you will see two other nations complicating things - France and the UK.
Elisabetta
- #13.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-17 15:03 - (Reply)
I agree that the UK and France did serve to spur Prussian expansion. The necessity of German nation-building I do not disagree with, but the manner by which it was accomplished. S & H were never considered parts of Germany proper any more than the Siebenbuergen Saxons were or are so categorized today. Re-interpreting Bismarck's foreign acquisitiveness through the lens of our current understanding of those fitful bed companions, enthno-linguistic identity and nationalism, was not settled in 1864. It seems quite appropriate now to consider a northward expansion of PRussia but that was far from settled then. Much as Jefferson thought it inevitable the US would expand north and swalllow the Canadian provinces, the core assumptions of earlier times do not necessarily survive.
Elisabetta
- #13.1.1.1.1.1.1.2 - 2008-06-17 15:06 - (Reply)
Aw shit I forgot:
franchie
- #13.1.1.1.1.1.1.3 - 2008-06-17 15:18 - (Reply)
the eu national wars that were launched by our kings (UK, Spanish, or austrian kings either) were more of inheritence claims than imperialism ambitions : the Gallic borders still remained Rhein,Alps,Pyrenneas, Channel since the Franks' kingdom
Don S
- #13.1.1.1.1.1.1.3.1 - 2008-06-17 19:31 - (Reply)
Well, Napoleon (and the French revolutionaries who preceded him) were a helluva exception. I think the attempt to bring Spain under the control of the French crown (War of the Spanish Succession) was just a trifle ambitious as well, as it would have been the largest kingdom since Charles V and an contiguous mass as well.
franchie
- #13.1.1.1.1.1.1.3.1.1 - 2008-06-17 20:45 - (Reply)
diplomatic alliances with marriages, fights with the descendances, that have been our long history with the Brits, Spain, Austria through Chales le Quintus descendants, indirectly with Flanders as spanish holdings ; only Italy was the gratuitus conquest envy, except for the Palerma kingdom that was also from the complicated anglo-french "Anjou" family interaction. I don't see there a spirit of imperialism, other than minds manipulation with ambassades
franchie
- #13.1.1.1.1.1.1.3.1.1.1 - 2008-06-17 20:49 - (Reply)
the "imperialism" is more on seas, who's got the best "armada", how many exotic comptoirs for merchandises we can get... soon colonies conquests !
Joe Noory
- #13.1.1.2 - 2008-06-13 22:35 - (Reply)
Actually, I dont think you even have to make that point. Just becuase something regrettable once happened, for whatever the reasons, it's childish to think that one is chained to it, and that it informs forever what once may do.
Joe Noory
- #13.1.2 - 2008-06-13 15:36 - (Reply)
Based on the help the US is getting, I'm not sure the white house really wants it. You'll recall in late 2001, the pleas on the part of Fischer, Villepin, etal not to be "left out". Even then it would seem to have been for symbolic reasons that would give the EU a chance to "have its' moment" and become a real player in something.
Don S
- #13.1.2.1 - 2008-06-13 20:54 - (Reply)
Agreed. I think it's time for Europe to set up as a DIY shop and the US to cultivate a little more isolation.
Franchie
- #14 - 2008-06-13 10:42 - (Reply)
the problem is that the US have so changed in the late decade, we don't recognize our GI, the problem is that AIPAC and arms manufacturers are the leader lobbies in Washington... the bigoted relgious...
Joe Noory
- #14.1 - 2008-06-13 14:29 - (Reply)
So all we are are bits and pieces and flakes of some anonymous French woman's passing memories of pop culture? You realize that your deeply uncritical acceptance of repeated opinions about AIPAC, or any other example of something repeated often enough or some idea that the US is responsible for your emotions about how you imagine we've changed isn't just irrational, it's based in a sort of cultural imperialism? It's absolutely ridiculous, and a sign of the basic and small level of your own capacity to think critically.
franchie
- #14.1.1 - 2008-06-16 21:10 - (Reply)
is it because I quoted what represents your "popular culture" ?
Joe Noory
- #14.1.1.1 - 2008-06-17 01:06 - (Reply)
First of all, they were never you GIs. Further, bits and pieces of exported pop culture impressed on foreigners is not why the US puts soldiers at risk.
John in Michigan, USA
- #14.2 - 2008-06-17 07:22 - (Reply)
"we don't recognize our GI, the problem is that AIPAC and arms manufacturers are the leader lobbies in Washington."
franchie
- #14.2.1 - 2008-06-17 12:12 - (Reply)
john, easy to class me as evil, though an eminent policy teacher of yours said it :
Joe Noory
- #14.2.1.1 - 2008-06-17 22:55 - (Reply)
No-one called you "evil", just horribly wrong and with a misplaced of what or who is "yours'". On top of that, using Counterpunch agit-prop is totally and completely inapproriate even if it was related to the subject of discussion.
franchie
- #14.2.1.1.1 - 2008-06-17 23:35 - (Reply)
"just horribly wrong and with a misplaced of what or who is "yours",
Pat Patterson
- #14.2.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-18 00:18 - (Reply)
That Eisenhower quote is very nice, referring to the Merchants of Death, except for the slight problem in that Eisenhower, even though negotiating an end to the Korean War, tripled the size of the military budget to 15% of national expenditures which is the highest figure since World War II. And guess who got the contracts, why those same old plutocrats and munition makers that Eisenhower had criticized. Maybe its wiser to look to see what the leaders do rather than relying on feel good speeches.
John in Michigan, USA
- #14.2.1.2 - 2008-06-18 13:18 - (Reply)
What on earth does Eisenhower, or the military-industrial complex he warned about, have to do with the Jews or AIPAC?
franchie
- #14.2.1.2.1 - 2008-06-18 13:40 - (Reply)
nothing, BUT a contrario ; though I am very disappointed that Eisenhower didn't make what he said
Joe Noory
- #14.2.1.2.1.1 - 2008-06-18 14:22 - (Reply)
He said that in his last few months in office. What was he supposed to do? Just hold power after his term ended?
Joe Noory
- #15.1.1 - 2008-06-26 14:51 - (Reply)
As much as I disagree with the lady, I'd imagine you'd want to think of the cultural habit associated with shutting people up. Add Comment
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