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Monday, June 16. 2008Euroblog Coverage: The Irish 'No'Posted by Editors in European Issues on Monday, June 16. 2008 Atlantic Review editor Nanne Zwagerman has written a Euroblog roundup regarding the Irish 'no' to the Lisbon Treaty in his personal blog DJ Nozem, which covers European issues much more extensively than Atlantic Review. The round-up includes J. Clive Matthews' call for looking more closely at the evolution of political integration in the United States, which did not happen merely by the stroke of a pen.
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Don S
- #1 - 2008-06-16 18:28 - (Reply)
"he evolution of political integration in the United States, which did not happen merely by the stroke of a pen." Comments ()
franchie
- #2 - 2008-06-16 21:54 - (Reply)
well, why should a population vote for hermetic laws ? they have deputees for that, therefore an EU constitution should also be voted by parliamentaries that are elected by vox populi to represent the plebe. Comments ()
Pat Patterson
- #2.1 - 2008-06-17 02:07 - (Reply)
Symbolic law? I thought that the Constitution was moribund and the current structure, which approval or disapproval was agreed to be binding, is a treaty? So it's a constitution only when it's a treaty and when it's approval is supposed to be unanimous unless its not unanimous then kick out the dissenters? I think maybe the various US consulates should provide abridged copies of the Federalist and Anti-federalist arguments. Not to serve as a guide on how to define the powers of the EU but rather to simply argue out the merits or lack of them in front of the public. Comments ()
franchie
- #2.1.1 - 2008-06-17 02:17 - (Reply)
the Irishes voted no because they said that they didn't understand the constitution, "no" is a lesser "evilness", and against Sarkozy... who will run EU only for 6 months... so , N'importe quoi ! Comments ()
Zyme
- #3 - 2008-06-16 23:39 - (Reply)
Letīs face it - when the majority of our laws are now created in Brussels, what good are our parliaments then? With our governments constituting the european council all legitimation is there and the basis is provided for quick progress. Waiting for 27 peoples is futile - asking them which chewing gum they prefer at a time would be more fruitful. Comments ()
John in Michigan, USA
- #4 - 2008-06-17 07:03 - (Reply)
Here on Atlantic Review, and elsewhere, I've seen the observation that there is no European [i]demos[/i]. This is sometimes offered to explain why the EU shouldn't, or can't, be more democratic in nature. Comments ()
Zyme
- #4.1 - 2008-06-17 08:33 - (Reply)
There are a lot of demos here - mostly when wages are to be cut or jobs will be lost. Which is what bothers most people most. Comments ()
Nanne
- #4.2 - 2008-06-17 10:47 - (Reply)
The lack of a European demos is an argument that is overestimated to some degree. Integration theorists tend to think that you can create a demos by fueling popular discussion of the EU through the media and other channels. I tend to think that people will start engaging more with the EU only when they get a larger amount of say, and the EU starts making decisions that are more directly relevant to people's lifes. Then people will organise along their political preferences, without there being a need for a felt common identity created through the media and the (often lame) symbols that are currently clung to by many enthousiasts of deeper integration. Comments ()
franchie
- #4.2.1 - 2008-06-17 12:20 - (Reply)
"I tend to think that people will start engaging more with the EU only when they get a larger amount of say, and the EU starts making decisions that are more directly relevant to people's lifes" Comments ()
John in Michigan, USA
- #4.2.1.1 - 2008-06-18 13:10 - (Reply)
"he, who wants to cut the grass that he has under his shoes" Comments ()
Joe Noory
- #4.2.2 - 2008-06-17 13:48 - (Reply)
I think this thing has suffered from intangibility due to overcomplication. Each of the public votes was rejected on the fear that Brussels would have too much power in one area or another. There needs to be a straitforward conversation about the separation of powers, and a short, concise constitution that the broader public can understand and either support or advise change on. Only then will people actually know what their rights are. Comments ()
franchie
- #5 - 2008-06-17 14:14 - (Reply)
"and a short, concise constitution that the broader public can understand " Comments ()
Pat Patterson
- #6 - 2008-06-17 17:17 - (Reply)
I would surely hate to see what then is regarded a long version of the Treaty of Lisbon considering its currently at 12,800 words and 70 articles. While the original US Consitution was published on four pages, the last being signatures. The Bill of Rights, published in 1791, added one page to the total. Its current iteration is at 4,400 words with seven articles and 27 amendments. I can carry a pocket version, which I also give all my students on a yearly basis, that does not leave a mark on my trousers unlike say a Copenhagen tin. Comments ()
franchie
- #6.1 - 2008-06-17 18:01 - (Reply)
here is the treaty of Lisboa : Comments ()
Joe Noory
- #6.1.1 - 2008-06-17 23:06 - (Reply)
Pages : [b]269 pp[/b] Comments ()
influx
- #6.1.1.1 - 2008-06-17 23:50 - (Reply)
Part 1 is the whole text. A little misleading maybe, but I guess it has to do with the fact that longer texts are split up into several parts. So yes, the whole treaty is available for free in 23 languages. Don't know what that says about the research abilities of your students. Comments ()
Pat Patterson
- #6.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-18 00:11 - (Reply)
I didn't say that that the Treaty of Lisbon was only available in those two languages but that the English text we requested also came with a French translation. And, here I'll defer to others, that appears the only way it came at that time. That is in the desired language mated with a French translation which ends up doubling the size of the document and doubling the cost of mailing. And is extremely doubtful usage for a classroom of 15 year olds. Most high schools in the US, for obvious reasons, do not allow downloads from overseas and often do not allow cookies. Comments ()
influx
- #6.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-18 00:19 - (Reply)
You were trying to teach 15 year olds in the US the inner workings of the EU? Comments ()
Zyme
- #6.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-18 00:50 - (Reply)
:D Comments ()
Don S
- #6.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-18 17:50 - (Reply)
Who? The Hospitaliers or the Knights Templar? Comments ()
Don S
- #6.1.1.1.1.1.1.2 - 2008-06-18 18:16 - (Reply)
Or maybe the Quebequois. Bloody canucks insist on putting their road signs in french, not english *God's language*. Comments ()
Elisabetta
- #6.1.1.1.1.1.1.2.1 - 2008-06-18 18:33 - (Reply)
Too damn right. Think of the metric system. The feast at Cana was not demarcated by kilos or liters, but hogsheads and Butcher's stones. Unless of course you hate Jesus.... Comments ()
Pat Patterson
- #6.1.1.1.1.1.2 - 2008-06-18 21:32 - (Reply)
Not really, I was simply trying to show the differences between a constitution that was approved by the citizens because that step was too important to leave to the elites and a constitution that was approved by the elites because it was too important to leave to the citizens. They noticed quickly that the EU Constitution or Treaty was primarily a set regulations while the American Constitution was a document that defined and recognized the compact between the citizens and the government and did not refer to agricultural policy or fishery quotas. Comments ()
Joe Noory
- #6.1.1.1.2 - 2008-06-18 17:55 - (Reply)
I don't have any students. You're thinking of someone else's response. Either way, it gagged on download. Comments ()
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