Thursday, August 14. 2008
Germany Saves the United States
Posted by Joerg Wolf in German Politics, Transatlantic Relations, US Foreign Policy on Thursday, August 14. 2008
The United States has done so much for Germany in the 20th century. I thought we had to be eternally grateful. Nope, not anymore. Germany has saved Americans from themselves. Now we are even. Yeah! ;-) Read what Justin Logan, the associate director of foreign policy studies at the Cato Institute, has to say:
Recall that President Bush made a full-court press to get Georgia (and Ukraine) onto Membership Action Plans at the recent NATO summit in Bucharest. In a heroic move, the Germans spiked the deal, saving us from ourselves. But both Barack Obama and John McCain favor Georgian accession into NATO - and with it, a full-on security commitments as Article V of the NATO charter makes clear.
Let's hope that even more Americans will realize Germany's opposition to NATO membership action plans for Georgia was a "heroic move" rather than appeasement of Russia. Seriously: While I do think that Justin Logan exaggerates quite bit, I agree with his basic point.
Endnote: The CATO blog is pretty cool. Benjamin Friedman, for instance, warns about China Rising by linking to a Defense News report that notes: "China has banned its air force pilots from drinking alcohol at lunchtime." We better watch out. The West's real threats come from the Far East, not from Eastern Europe. Russia + Vodka = Yoga! ;-)
Benjamin Friedman make no sense there by saying :
[...warn about China Rising by linking to a Defense News report that notes: "China has banned its air force pilots from drinking alcohol at lunchtime." We better watch out. The West's real threats come from the Far East, not from Eastern Europe. ]
There are rules in military we don't need to explain these to any adults. Even for pilots for civilian air service they also need to abide by some regulation. when in travel, I don't want my life decided by a drunken pilots. I recommend CATO Institute had better improve their research products,Benjamin Friedman's ludicrous reports insult not only himself , but CATO Institute as well.
Take care ! Ben
OTOH, if we allow the West to be paralyzed by Europe's reflexive risk aversiveness, we won't be any better off than the guy in the chair at your amusing vodka link. You can't sit at the negotiating table without a spine.
Joerg says Let's hope that even more Americans will realize Germany's opposition to NATO membership action plans for Georgia was a "heroic move"
Cowardice is never heroic. Running from or avoiding a fight is the path to loss of power and pride. Germany lost both long ago and doesn't appear to care.
"Running from or avoiding a fight is the path to loss of power and pride."
Germany lost power and pride by doing the opposite.
The US also lost power and pride by getting involved in Iraq, which was none of its business. The same is true for Georgia. But then again, it is not your sons and daughters that get killed.
Come on, folks. Lighten up! Turn up the gain on your irony detectors. Besides, Logan is hardly the only one making a similar, though more restrained, point. And, it's CATO for heaven's sake.
In fact, I would suggest the following negotiating strategy for Sarkozy and the EU over Georgia: Hang tough on NATO membership for Georgia and don't give it up unless you really, really have to. That should be made a major concession by France and Germany to Russia. ;)
When Georgia break their words(agreement) with Abkhaz and South Ossetie and bombard there, EU keep silent . When Russia interfere . France and Germany got so excited! they picture Russia as barbaric invaders and describe Mikhail Saakashvili as a hero fighting tyrant Russian Tsar. But the truth is not what western media describe to the world.
In order to save Georgia weak government, Mikhail Saakashvili take this desperate action. He defintely miscalculate the whole situation. Russia give no D'mn to Georgia 's domestic political game. Vladimir Putin give Saakashvili a immediate response as a punishment to its political gambling. France and Germany had better backed off, instead of stir up a new round of militray confrontation with Russia. Pay lip service may give Saakashvili an impression that Georgia was wooed then cheated, but it will save EU from direct militray showdown with Russia. We had so many things need to deal with , like nuclear proliferation, environment deterioration. I hope Germany and France can save the whole world by giving up its political game. Squeezing Russia 's strategic space , weaken its power may not means a victory to its counterparts. It's not a Zero-Sum game. So Mekel and Sakozy should not only save America, they should save the whole world. IMO,this big-mouthed couple is the savier of the world, If they have sagaciousness as politician and not yielding to western media's pressure .
Let Josef Goebbels's propaganda machine (western media) go hell,they had lost their credits by cooking-up data and pictures. Western media always think they are moral beacons, they are the saviors of the world. Maybe we need someone to save such bunch of arrogant lia'rs.
What word or treaty did the Georgians break? The only treaty I can find that was broken is when the Russians crossed the border in force into, for the sake of argument, just Georgia. Didn't both nations promise to repect the borders of each other's country in 1992 via the creation of the CIS? And since except for passports the bulk of the people in South Ossetia speak an offshoot of Persian and are considered related to present day Iran then I can only wonder which Russians were being saved? And since no one, even the Russians, had recognized South Ossetia, other than de facto, as being independent what treaty are the Russians using to justify this invasion?
Georgia is a member state of "Independent-Union Countries". Russia ,Georgia and two "sepeartist states" had reached an agreement on peacekeeping. Russia agreed to respect Georgia 's sovereign . At the same time Georgia make commitment they will not using military force to solve the disputes with South Ossetie and Abkhaz.
When western powers overplay in Kosovo,they make Russia to re-evaluate its situation on security.First Kosovo war, never ending NATO eastward expension, Missile defence system , then Georgia's invasion to south Ossetie which closely connected with Russia. Russia got no choice. Slapping on Saakashvili's face aims at sending a message to US and EU. Russia will not make concession any more. If western world respect Russia, Russia will not dare to confront the whole West. at this time ,Russia had promise to stop their militray operation.
But if US or EU ignore Russia 's dignity , make blatant threat on Russia. You gonna see what Russia will response. I think that definitely will not be welcomed by Western world. frankly speaking , Western powers got no effective way to counter Russia.
One, it's the Commonwealth of Independent States which assigned sovereignty of the contested areas, which has never been revoked, to Georgia. There were supposed to be three peace keeping forces in South Ossetia and none of them were supposed to have artillery, armor or advanced air craft. But only Russia did.
The simple question is under what terms of the Sochi Agreement allowed the Russians to abrogate all other treaties in repect of their promises to not grab either South Ossetia or Abkhazia. Especially when the mandate of the Russian commanded JPFK was to control both the Kourty government and the breakaway government in Kurta. The Russians were supposed to remain neutral and to prevent both sides from killing each other which they both seemed intent on doing with various degress of success since 1988.
'Vladimir Putin give Saakashvili a immediate response as a punishment to its political gambling.'
A little too immediate, like maybe you guys had your troops already deployed on the border?
Kevin! It is not a secret that Russia's troop station along the borders between Russia and Georgia. Russia's "peacekeeping force" even stay in Abkhaz before South Ossetie crsis. When Kosovo's wrestling ends with Russia 's total failure, Russia counterattack Western world from this two flash points.
Georgia know what Russia gonna do if it do nothing, The tiny country faces two choices. for one choice, ask support from EU and US by joining NATO. the other choice is stay in independent-state Union, recognize Russia's authority and leadership, in return Russia will respect its sovereign and territory integrity. Georgia and Russia are all ready for the possible confrontation. At least Saakashvili himself he can handle the whole thing before he ignite South Ossetie crsis.
I have no rights to make judgement on Georgian people's choice. I respect their feeling to maintain their country's integrity. But i do dislike that guy ,Saakashvili . Who carried out bomardment on South Ossetie on Olympic Day(Aug. 8).
He should know who he is and what his power limit is . He spark the crisis but he have no power to handle the situation.Without Russia 's permission, his appeal for ceasefire sounds so funny.
This crisis reflects the fierce competition between Russia and West. It's a pity for this tiny state and its people. Georgia will not earn anything by force, on the countrary, Georgian people had to face some unexpectable things thanks to Saakashvili 's foolness.
P.S
Phelps, the greatest player, had won his 6 gold medals in Olympic Games, seems no one can block his dream for 8 Olympic gold medals. We can anticipate then celebrate that history moment. Another astonishing thing for me to celebrate is: China gonna replace USA as the No. 1 in Olympic game. a big strike to you and Paterson ,right?
I notice that still there is absolutely not attempt to provide one example from either the CST or the cease-fire document of 1992, the Sochi Agreement to justify Russia's actions. Plus using the example of Kosovo just reveals how cynical the whole invasion is as the Dayton Accords specifically promise Serbia that it will get the province back if it refrains from killing the Kosovars on a daily basis. But since Serbia seemed to be intent on losing another war and another chunk of its territory the West obliged. And the charge of genocide made against the Georgians is somewhat ludicrous when one considers that part of Russia's current leadership is still trying to restore "Iron Felix" to Lubyanka Square.
Since I haven't paid much attention to the Olympics the last statement is somewhat puzzling. But I guess currently the US is well ahead of China but considering the disparity in size it would seem inevitable that China would eventually be more succesful at the Olympics. But their weakness in athletics(poor coaching and lack of a development system) and team sports(again poor coaching but also a still very small pool of skilled athletes) will delay that success for at least another decade. But then so what? The issue still remains that twice in my lifetime the USSR and Russia have managed to completely antagonize the West for some minor tactical gain at the cost of thousands of Afghan and now Georgian lives. Sort of a reverse Croesus.
1. The Olympics can't be compared to war. The only people who try to make that comparison have never been exposed to war, can't, and shouldn't be taken seriously.
2. When people resort to jumping up and down, and are reduced to using 'the national dignity' as an excuse, not only have they been socially conditioned into believing whatever it is, they are running out of plausible arguments.
3. The Russian war in Georgia has far more to do with the Russians and Georgians than anyone else. To say that the main issue and cause is the US is contrived and tortured.
4. Were the DDOS attacks that started two days before the whole thing started a "matter of Russian dignity"?
5. If the Russian deployment was spontaneous, it will be the first time they've ever gotten a battalion to be organized enough to move in shorter than a month.
6. Where are the usual people bleating about violating internantional law?
7. Where's Code Pink?
McCain: "In the 21st century nations do not invade other nations."
Very good point. Too bad he didn't listen to his own advice.
Sen. Obama, "If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will."
Very good point, too bad as president the chances of Sen. Obama acting on that are virtually nil.
What's so stupifying about American leftist is that they can't quite understand that every affair that happens in the world is not a result of their own bugbears and domestic American political issues.
I have seen a report that unterviewed Georgians, they said if they (the russians) want him (their president), they can take him, but we ought to be left in peace
Again I can only ask what source?
France national TV, is it a source for you ?
Not really! What day, what time, what is the name of the station and the website? The translation you used is quite confusing because it means about the same as if one was quoting from American national tv, meaningless.
TF1, France 2 France 3, yesterday news, 20 o'clock
it's one of the 3, my hudbby had put on for OG purpose,
france 2, france 3, there are some videos there :
http://info.france2.fr/monde/45556830-fr.php
the Tf1 videos are not available
BTW look at that one :
http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/videos/index_rub.php?id_rubrique=4&id_video=3927
isn't it funny that MCCain makes such a statment !!!!
seems also that Serbia is going to ask for the reexamination of Kosovo independance :
http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/actualites/international/europe/20080816.OBS7522/la_serbie_appelle_a_une_solution_diplomatique.html
That is an exceedingly small reed on which to build on. One priest and two parishoners that are somewhat unhappy with Saakashvili. But I did like the video of the Georgian women spitting and cursing at the Russian soldiers.
In regards to Sen. McCain's comment I would only ask what authorization, unlike UNSC Resolution 1441 or the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution 2002 that the US used justify its acts against Iraq, did the Russians use? Did the Russian leadership poll the Duma? I would think that it is obvious by now that not only did the Russians act without any legal authority but also had every intent on dismembering a state that they had promised to respect its borders.
Serbia can probably ask and demand all they want but since the clearly violated the terms of the Dayton Accords, which all parties recognized, then legally they haven't a leg to stand on. Unless perhaps they dig up a Kosovar and use his leg as a crutch.
OK, I was sure that you only notice what's favoring your opinion,
though that video exists, hope to get it in the next days
BTW I have made a counter scenario in response to the contempt that our american friends handle towards Sarkozy's role
hi Nico, how ya doing ?
fine and you ?
well, it could be better…
what about ?
Those bloody Georgians are putting us in a deep s..t
what ? I thought you had them in control
I too, but that idiot president cheated us
how that ?
he took upon his infatuated ego to attack the Ossetians, imagine the s..t…
yeah, I bet that Vlad jumped on the fly
that’s right, the problem is that he wants to subjuggate all the nest now
really ?
yes, he is furious, BTW, can you help me ?
sure, what should I do ?
you know Putin, he won’t stop if we don’t begg him for, so I have thought that you could go over there to make the point
yeah, what should I tell him ?
first, to stop harming the people of Georgia, you know how I care for them
yes, I’ll do that, do you have any more request ?
uh, find a way that would be acceptable for our both friends
yes, I understand
most of all, say we don’t want an escalation, he, I don’t want to be held for responsable of the next WW3, just at the end of my mendate
I see, not a nice perspective to appreciate a rancher life
ya all understood my friend, so I favor you to save our( image,
OK Dubbleiu, you can count on me, I’ll send you an every-day texto report of my travel there
OK, please, Im looking forwards, god luck Niko
thanks, don’t forget to pray, we’ll need it
you might want to know what was my base for this probable scenario :
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/255/story/47631.html
I said I like the video but do not claim that it is any more accurate then the video you claimed showed animosity to Saakashvili. In fact I would probably be the first to say that watching the news is a lousy way to get information and a touching faith in its veracity is always sure to be contradicted in the next news cycle.
Now if you had found a motion for a vote of no confidence in the Georgian Parliament or members of Saakashvili's cabinet resigning in protest that might be indicative of internal political problems. But two ladies interviewed after midday mass only indicates that the reporter only interviewed two people. They could just as well been asked about UFOs.
didn't found yet the original video,
though here is a swiss video that says that the Georgians are fed up of their president that hadn't a balanced position, but though they also say that they don't like the russians,that they need a president that doesn't harm them
http://info.rsr.ch/fr/rsr.html?siteSect=5001&broadcastId=600676&bcItemId=9484611
'the other choice is stay in independent-state Union, recognize Russia's authority and leadership, in return Russia will respect its sovereign and territory integrity'
Exactly how is this different from the USSR?
@ E.J.
Absolutely, also see Eurotrib:
[url=http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2008/8/14/54711/4234]The Ruskies are back. Praise the Lord!
Did you hear that loud collective sigh from capitals across Europe and the US? From newsrooms and journalists, academics and pundits? It was a sigh of relief: the Cold War is back, and it's better than ever.[/url]
Actually, I personally am due all the credit for saving the US by preventing Georgia from joining NATO. However, I will be happy to share the credit with Germany.
[url=http://atlanticreview.org/archives/1048-NATO-Bucharest-Summit-Press-Round-Up.html#c13177]Here you can see my recommendation against it, in comment #2.1[/url]. I wrote:
"Ukraine and Georgia are at least headed towards democracy, while Russia runs away from it; but until we can be sure democracy is going to succeed in Ukraine and Georgia, we should perhaps look at other ways to help them before we offer NATO pre-membership (MAP)"
---
There have been a lot of allegations about who did what; I am sure the Georgians are not entirely blameless, but they deserve the benefit of the doubt for any number of reasons.
The Russian allegations of anti-Ossetian genocide are particularly ridiculous. Georgia has no major ambitions in N. Ossetia, and is not a threat to them. Are the S. Ossetians suddenly a whole "people" or culture [i]that is distinct from N. Ossetia[/i]? If not, the charge of genocide is impossible; the worst charge that is possible is ethnic cleansing.
And even that charge is hard to support. Granted, there is a great deal of ethnic tension in the region, and the war has open the floodgates to score-settling by various mafias. Some of these groups may desire ethnic cleansing, and that includes pro-Russian groups as well as neutral and pro-Georgian groups. But, none of these groups represent the Georgian government, as far as I can tell. The government itself seems to want to ensure that S. Ossetia remains Georgian territory; it does not seem to want to make S. Ossetia ethnically Georgian.
These Russia genocide accusations are an example of one of my pet peeves, the use of the word genocide to describe almost anything bad that happens. It is an Orwellian dumbing-down of an important concept, in which the wonderfully rich and nuanced vocabulary which exists in any language to describe the many and various forms of evil, becomes reduced to some idiot screaming "double-plus-ungood!!!"
The Russia + Vodka = Yoga! page is outstanding.
We need to explore strategic uses of vodka in this conflict. Am I calling for chemical warfare? David?
germany is a threat to the United States. Going forward one can only hope more and more Americans will see this.
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