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Thursday, November 3. 2005"Vice President for torture", secret CIA prisonsPosted by Editors in US Foreign Policy on Thursday, November 3. 2005 Folkard Wohlgemuth recommends the op-ed "Degrading our soldiers and ourselves" in the International Herald Tribune, which deals with Vice President Cheney's attempt on allowing the CIA to treat (or should one rather say: "abuse"?) captives basically as they please. "It is worth remembering that the rule of law is not just a "value," much less a luxury confined to more peaceful times", comments the author, Anne-Marie Slaughter. "Our founders looked to law as constraint, not as license; as a check on power, not authorization. The difference is a matter of honor, of values, of identity itself." The Wash Post's Dana Priest reports about a "covert prison system set up by the CIA nearly four years ago that at various times has included sites in eight countries":
The White House has the transcript and Think Progress the video of his speech. In October the Atlantic Review described how the US Senate and an army captain stood up for moral values in the war on terrorism. Comments
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stehpinkeln
- #1 - 2005-11-04 14:21 - (Reply)
Anne-Marie Slaughter. "Our founders looked to law as constraint, not as license; as a check on power, not authorization. The difference is a matter of honor, of values, of identity itself." Comments ()
Traveler
- #1.1 - 2005-11-26 23:49 - (Reply)
Wow, a true idiot straight out of the movies. I mean come on. Your president is an ignorant, corrupt, hypocrite and you got exactly what you deserved by re-electing him. He is as dangerous to the world as Sadam because he cannot leave religion out of the State. You talk about Islam but America is the most religious, and some say zealot country in the western world. Good to you America, you 'll need it. Comments ()
David
- #2 - 2005-11-05 02:04 - (Reply)
The comment by stehpinkeln makes me despair for the future of democracy. He does bring up one shameful aspect of American history: the unlawful detention of Japanese-Americans in guarded camps. That was immoral and wrong, and subsequent presidents have apologized. I can recommend David Neiwart'bs book: "Strawberry Days: How Internment Destroyed a Japanese American Community". Comments ()
Axe Wielding Maniac
- #3 - 2005-11-05 18:00 - (Reply)
This exactly the thing that is killing our image around the world. Perception is everything. During the first Gulf war Americans where appalled at the fact that an American prisoner was displayed in public. I don’t know about the men you know, but most of the Men I know and the Marines I served with would have a problem with world seeing them in the poses that our detainees where pictured is it any wonder that the president will not sign any agreement that binds our troops to international law. Comments ()
stehpinkeln
- #4 - 2005-11-05 18:39 - (Reply)
The ONLY poll that counted was held last November. Comments ()
Brigitte
- #5 - 2005-11-05 20:43 - (Reply)
Bush is damned hypocrite! Comments ()
Brigitte
- #6 - 2005-11-05 21:04 - (Reply)
Here's more info about the German torture case from The Atlantic Monthly Comments ()
At the Zoo
- #7 - 2005-11-05 23:41 - (Reply)
Broad subject. People throw the word "torture" around loosely to mean almost anything, even what amounts to hazing. And, as in Brigitte's comment, who wouldn't resort to torture in that situation? Be honest with yourself. Yet, fortunately, rarely is such life-saving information needed so instantly. I agree with Senator McCain: Congress must set the standards. Like him, I don't give a rat's rear end about the terrorists, but I do care about us and our people. Brutality is its own reward, and I don't want to brutalize our troops and CIA agents by having them do cruel and inhuman things. That said, the KGB invented an ingenious method of "breaking" people that works like a charm, without laying a hand on them. I will bet my bottom dollar that MI6 and every western European intelligence agency uses this method. Quite similar in many respects to what you see at GITMO. Makes the the prisoner uncomfortable at times, but otherwise nothing like physical torture. Unfortunately, this method doesn't work very well on people already "broken" like terrorists. (Maybe you have to "unbreak" them.) I think the CIA is learning how handle this type of person in order to get information. Torture doesn't work either and will backfire on a religious fanatic, so I doubt it happens unless somebody gets frustrated and breaks the rules. These jihadists are trained to make false accusations of torture if they're captured. All who handle prisoners must be closely supervised to prevent mistreatment. Also, the main problem in Europe is that terrorists have more rights than Mafioso. That makes it impossible to get actionable intelligence from prisoners, and that is why the CIA sneaks them off to interrogate in secret. Because there's a WAR on, and American lives count too! These are not individual criminals -- they are part of an armed force waging WAR. Imagine treating every captured German soldier during WWII the way Europe treats terrorists now. It's absurd. The main thing is intelligence. Terrorists must be held incommunicato till we learn what we can from them. Europe's failure to cooperate in this is the reason for the "secret prisons." Comments ()
Brigitte
- #7.1 - 2005-11-06 09:53 - (Reply)
No, the reason for the secret prisons around the world (including Europe) is that these prisons are illegal in the US, as the quote from the Washington Post says. They were kept secret because the guys in charge know that the American people would disapprove of them (even in times of war like now) and because some judge might consider them unconstitutional. Comments ()
At the Zoo
- #7.1.1 - 2005-11-13 01:22 - (Reply)
That's why Congress has to act - to establish jurisdiction in these cases so no criminal-court judge pulls the same irresponsible stunt here that judges are pulling in Europe. These are not isolated crimes. This is an armed force waging war. Comments ()
Andrew Sullivan
- #8 - 2005-11-07 12:32 - (Reply)
Andrew Sullivan in The Times Comments ()
Brigitte
- #9 - 2005-11-14 16:53 - (Reply)
@Kathy Comments ()
Brigitte
- #10 - 2005-11-15 09:56 - (Reply)
@ Kathy Comments ()
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Torture and indefinite detention without trial at Guantanamo have been hot topics in Washington in recent weeks. Senator McCain wants to categorically ban torture, while Vice President Cheney wants to give the CIA the right to torture. The Senate is Comments ()
Tracked: Nov 17, 11:25