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Sunday, October 1. 2006Talking about Torture and Using Germany for IllustrationPosted by Joerg Wolf in US Domestic and Cultural Issues on Sunday, October 1. 2006
To your left is a short video clip of a talk show discussion about the Senate vote on the controversial detainee interrogation bill.
It's a good summary of some of the usual pro and con arguments. Reza Aslam, author of No God But God. The Origin, Evolution and Future of Islam (Amazon.com, Amazon.de) is noteworthy. The panelist Sandy Rios defends the Bush policy and the Senate vote. To support her opinion she incorrectly claims that a German prosecutor used non-life-threatening coercion techniques to get the location of a kidnapped boy from the suspect. Bill Maher's response was inaudible to me (do you understand him?); nobody corrected her statement. In the case she mentioned nobody used any such techniques. The deputy policy chief threatened to use violence. The deputy police chief and another policeman were temporarily suspended and a judge said in his concluding statement: "With the threat of torture the police did grave damage to the rule of law of this country." Background in DW World. Assorted quotes on this matter in general: Paul Rieckhoff, executive director of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America and author of Chasing Ghosts: A Soldier's Fight for America From Baghdad to Washington. (Amazon.com, Amazon.de) in the NY Times: America's moral integrity was the single most important weapon my platoon had on the streets of Iraq. It saved innumerable lives, encouraged cooperation with our allies and deterred Iraqis from joining the growing insurgency. But those days are over. America's moral standing has eroded, thanks to its flawed rationale for war and scandals like Abu Ghraib, Guantánamo and Haditha. The last thing we can afford now is to leave Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions open to reinterpretation, as President Bush proposed to do and can still do under the compromise bill that emerged last week. Fareed Zakaria in Newsweek in November 2005: Ask any soldier in Iraq when the general population really turned against the United States and he will say, "Abu Ghraib." A few months before the scandal broke, Coalition Provisional Authority polls showed Iraqi support for the occupation at 63 percent. A month after Abu Ghraib, the number was 9 percent. Polls showed that 71 percent of Iraqis were surprised by the revelations. (...) Initially, people the world over thought Americans were crazy during Watergate, but they came to respect a rule of law so strong that even a president could not break it. But today, what angers friends of America abroad is not that abuses like those at Abu Ghraib happened. Some lapses are probably an inevitable consequence of war, terrorism and insurgencies. What angers them is that no one beyond a few "little people" have been punished, the system has not been overhauled, and even now, after all that has happened, the White House is spending time, effort and precious political capital in a strange, stubborn and surely futile quest to preserve the option to torture. Andrew Sullivan: It is one of history's great tragedies that American conservatism, born in part in resistance to Soviet torture, should end by endorsing it in America, by Americans. And not just endorsing it, but brandishing the use of it as a tool to gain re-election and maintain power. "More in the Moderate Voice. Endnote: You might have to click twice on "play" to see the video and you might need to install a flashplayer. UPDATE: In his Boston Globe column "Fighting for our honor", H.D.S. Greenway wrote about practical considerations as well: "No good intelligence is going to come from abusive practices," the army's deputy chief of staff for intelligence, Lieutenant General John Kimmons, told Pentagon reporters recently. "I think the empirical evidence of the last five years tells us that. And, moreover, any piece of intelligence which is obtained under duress, through the use of abusive techniques, would be of questionable credibility, and . . . it would do more harm than good . . . We can't afford to go there." Comments
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clarence
- #1 - 2006-09-30 15:25 - (Reply)
Bill Maher (the moderator, who is a professional comedian) simply terms the interrogation techniques permitted by the bill as "torture", which of course ends the matter as far as he is concerned. My response is that Mr Maher is a moron, which ends the matter as far as I am concerned. ;-) Comments ()
David
- #1.1 - 2006-09-30 17:43 - (Reply)
"The people captured in Afghanistan and Iraq are not innocent children swept off the streets of Paris; they are my country's enemies." Comments ()
David
- #2 - 2006-09-30 18:16 - (Reply)
"Bill Maher's response was inaudible to me (do you understand him?);" Comments ()
Eva
- #3 - 2006-09-30 18:38 - (Reply)
Even though it might sound naive, but I never thought I would live to see the day, when in the US a law is passed that legalizes torture. Comments ()
ROA
- #3.1 - 2006-09-30 21:58 - (Reply)
Is waterboarding any worse than being escorted to an 8-by-10 cell shared with a tattooed dude who says “Hi, my name is Spike, honey.”? A punishment enthusiastically endorsed by California's Democratic Attorney General Bill Lockyer. Why do Democrats approve of rape, but oppose waterboarding? Comments ()
Simon
- #3.1.1 - 2006-10-21 04:33 - (Reply)
Why do you have to think along those lines of "Democrats vs. Republicans means either one or the other"? I don't know enough about the Californian case, but in case "the" Democrats screwed up there, is that a nyreason to approve of Bush's (or any other) politics? - It's just one more incident showing me that the US American two-party system misleads some people to think in "black and white" categories. "If the other is wrong [preferably add: about anything], I have to be right." Comments ()
clarence
- #4 - 2006-09-30 22:16 - (Reply)
"Congress has passed legislation that permits the President to kidnap and torture innocent foreign citizens" Comments ()
David
- #4.1 - 2006-09-30 23:51 - (Reply)
Either you are too lazy to read the actual legislation, or you are blinded by your love for Dear Leader. Comments ()
Don
- #5 - 2006-10-01 03:53 - (Reply)
Ah yes. Abu Ghraib - again. Such a TIMELY topic dontcha think? Comments ()
JW-Atlantic Review
- #5.1 - 2006-10-01 12:20 - (Reply)
I am certainly not someone who exaggerates Abu Ghraib. See my post: Comments ()
Don
- #5.1.1 - 2006-10-01 17:05 - (Reply)
Darfur? What is this Darfur? Comments ()
Chris
- #6 - 2006-10-02 04:53 - (Reply)
This would be comedy if it were not so brutal. Comments ()
Fullie
- #7 - 2006-10-02 21:34 - (Reply)
Once there was a country who based its constitution and its Bill of Rights on the Magna Charta. Habeas Corpus was one of the fundamental rights of EVERY HUMAN BEING. Comments ()
clarence
- #7.1 - 2006-10-03 10:23 - (Reply)
Fullie, Comments ()
Hattie
- #8 - 2006-10-02 22:06 - (Reply)
Maher is not a mere comedian, any more than Stephen Colbert is. That kind of critique is like saying that Jonathan Swift wrote children's books. Comments ()
clarence
- #8.1 - 2006-10-03 10:28 - (Reply)
>Maher is not a mere comedian Comments ()
wintermute
- #9 - 2006-10-03 12:24 - (Reply)
> Care to discuss how Germany has treated Comments ()
clarence
- #10 - 2006-10-03 20:37 - (Reply)
Wintermute: Comments ()
JW-Atlantic Review
- #10.1 - 2006-10-03 20:54 - (Reply)
"The title and excerpt didn't ask, what treatment of combatants is authorized in Germany or Britain or Japan (or the US)?" Comments ()
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When you scan a headline like this in The Onion, you know it's either a hilarious exagerration of the truth, or American foreign policy (read: credibility) has sunk to a new low. If it's humour, everyone's getting in on the joke: Talking Torture and Using Germany as an Illustration - Atlantic Review Senate Passes Torture Bill and Bush Pardon - Drudge Report: Beavis Christ Blog Have You No Sense of Decency, Sir, at Long Last? - Tragos, Brian Cooney Senate Passes Detainee Bill Sought by Bush - New York Times When the post 9/11 suspension of some human rights began, I hoped the various governments, armies and security agencies would somehow distinguish themselves by their ethics and actions from those who sew terror with suicide bombs in public places. The distinction continues to blur until into insignificance. Tags: terrorists, usa, senate, anti-terrorism, torture Powered by Qumana Comments ()
Tracked: Oct 01, 16:47