Thursday, August 2. 2007
Thousands of Israelis "Restore" Their German Citizenship
Posted by Editors in German Politics on Thursday, August 2. 2007
In the past year alone, more than 4,300 Israelis received German citizenship, according to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics—an increase of 50 percent over the previous year. And fortunately for the many Israelis with German ancestry, they are not forced to revoke their Israeli citizenship thanks to Article 116 (2) of the German Constitution. They are simply having their citizenship "restored." This law has grown in popularity over the past few years as the security situation has deteriorated in Israel and discontent with the government has escalated.Related post in the Atlantic Review: Germany's "Vibrant" and Growing Jewish Community
UPDATE: We have deleted a few comments. Explanation in the comments section.
I don't know which is worse: Zyme'e constant referral to Jews as "those people" or Reid's racism towards Muslims. Both feel comfortable expressing repulsive views behind their anonymity.
[strike]It is a fact that Jews on average have high IQ's. And it is also a fact that Muslim nations have low average IQ's. When did facts become repulsive? They became repulsive when they cause cognitive dissonance in people who don't handle reality well. They prefer conveinient fiction that reinforces their worldview to facts.[/strike]
[b]Editors note: [/b]Sonja and I decided to delete the above comment (and a few others), but then again there are so many good responses to this comment. Therefore I have just formated the comment above as "strikethrough."
On the one hand we would like to have smart discussions rather than debating the IQ of nations and religious groups. On the other other hand we value free speech of each and every reader and we also believe that our readers can take care of themselves. Thus the above comment is just marked as strikethrough rather than deleted. I hope that makes sense. Any other suggestions? Joerg
I have worked with a fair number of Muslims both here in the UK and in the US. My experience is that they do not have low IQ's. Their prevalence in jobs in the thinking professions does not support your thesis either.
I don't regard them as superior either. Just normal.
Don, thanks. Among my colleagues are Muslim software developers from Egypt and Pakistan. They are incredibly smart, hard-working guys who would do anything for their families. By the way, their team leader is an Israeli...
David, I think what many people have noted is that right now in this age there are a lot of undereducated and disadvantaged Muslims - even in the West. This is not the rule in the US but is seen quite a bit in Europe.
Some historical perspective is required. Nobody today sees Irish as 'dumb paddies' or Jews as whatever epithet you choose. But it wasn't long ago when these groups were seen as stupid when actually they were disadvantaged.
One more thing: Islam is a very diverse religion, and many parts of that diversity seem to wish to stave off modernity by repressing parts of both their own community (notably women) and sometimes other parts of the community. I think Reid's mistake is to look at this part of Islam and mistake it for the whole.
Reid is dead right on one point however - large parts of Islam are a deadly danger to all of us. Though it seems clear that they are forst and foremost dangerous to those within Islam who do not agree with them!
I agree with David; therefore, Jörg and I have decided to erase comments by "Reid of America" which we found despiteous and vitriolic. They go against everything the Atlantic Review stands for. We have also deleted some of Zyme's comments because we didn't feel comfortable with some implications he or she has made.
We thank and applaud Pat, on the other hand, for his or her thoughtful and informative comment on the subject, and we sincerely hope that all of you, including Reid of America and Zyme, will continue to contribute to an open and fair debate on the Atlantic Review.
Your editors, Sonja and Joerg
Israelis have traditionally been very amenable to the idea of dual citizenship. In the 80's many Israelis traveled on South African, as well as Argentinian, Cypriote and Brazilian passports to avoid problems with the rejectionist states.
Since the law was tightened in 2005, making it much more difficult for non-observant Jews from East Europe to attain citizenship, more observant Jews have now taken advantage of the law restoring citizenship, just in case.
Slightly 0/T but there are more observant Mennonites(150,000) in the US then there are observant Jews(100,000) in Germany. And since immigration into Germany is stagnant I'm not sure an increase of 4.3% in such a small minority is much to get excited about.
I think Zyme is correct. Until Germany's society evolves to the point where it welcomes and embraces Jewish life, I think that any influx of Jews, Israeli, Sephardic or Azhkenazi, promoted by the government smacks of political motives. By welcome and embrace, I do not mean 'Alles auf Zucker' or somesuch triviality, but something more objectively verifiable. Can you withdraw the 24 hr police guard from Jewish institutions and not have them be torched?
The police guard is the reality check for anyone who thinks that jews are particulary welcome in this country.
The only countries I can imagine in which jewish institutions have to be guarded at a comparable intensity are arabian ones.
I think the reasons are numerous. But to explain the situation here, there must be reasons that apply only to Germany. The only difference to other european countries I can think of is the attention this minority receives in public and in politics here. This may cause the uneasy feeling among a considerable part in the society that they are favored and have a stronger influence on political decisions.
As soon as they receive no more attention than any other minority representing 0.1 per cent of the population, the situation will certainly calm down considerably. So before fighting the symptoms, we should concentrate on the fundamental reasons if we want to reduce anti-semitism effectively.
@ authors
I´ve never intended to be a comfortable commenter. When I see grievances, I point them out. As this is your blog, I will of course respect decisions made regarding the desired content. As long as you are interested in an honest exchange of opinions, I will take part. In addition to the information on strategical developments, the open debates have become the main attraction of this place after all.
I don't believe the danger is unique to Germany. I've heard similar things in France. Indeed most of the most violent public acts seem to have occured in France rather thn Germany, including the young jew who was kidnapped and tortured to death in a Paris suburb.
I can't recall anything like that occuring in Germany, probably because of the police protection.
"I can't recall anything like that occuring in Germany, probably because of the police protection."
You know, if one thing works in this country, it is the security infrastructure. Once that fails, the end is near :)
The temperature in this discussion has heated up above a point I consider healthy. So I will not post any more today. Hopefully the atmosphere will be more relaxed tomorrow.
"The police guard is the reality check for anyone who thinks that jews are particulary welcome in this country."
This is just stupid.
1.) The world "welcome" makes no sense because most Jews living in Germany have German citizenship.
Would you talk about protestants not being "welcome" in Bavaria?
2.) As another commentator pointed out in another thread a few days ago: Jewish institutions in the US are also protected. That commentator even said that many Jews would carry guns when going to the synagogue... Was that a comment by Reid?
In fact Jewish institutions around the world have a lot of protection. Likewise, many US institutions have a lot of protection around the world. Even in Albania, which is considered the most pro-American country in the world:
[url]http://atlanticreview.org/archives/700-Albania-The-Most-Pro-American-Country-in-the-World.html[/url]
And when Brangelina come to Berlin, they will also have plenty of protection. Why? Do Germans hate Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt? No, not all. But there are a few nutcases everywhere.
Contrary to your claim, policy protection is not an indicator of how unpopular someone is in Germany. It is just an indicator of the threat level. A few nutcases is enough to get police protection. A few nutcases can cause a lot of harm.
You comment is just plain stupid.
There is a lot of police protection at Merkel's office, but she is one of the most popular politicians.
" As long as you are interested in an honest exchange of opinions, I will take part. In addition to the information on strategical developments, the open debates have become the main attraction of this place after all."
Fine. I appreciate that.
Just please make smarter comments!
.) As another commentator pointed out in another thread a few days ago: Jewish institutions in the US are also protected. That commentator even said that many Jews would carry guns when going to the synagogue... Was that a comment by Reid?
----Some Synagogues are protected by the police after they receive bomb threats or the like, but I am not aware of any Jewish synagogue or institution outside of the Israeli Embassy that is under constant 24 hour police protection. In Germany, Jewish bookstores and cultural centers are guarded 24 hours a day. If the possibility of someone torching any visible manifestation of your religion is so high to merit police protection, perhaps you should not invite Jews into Germany before the society becomes a little more tolerant?
Jews carrying guns to Temple? Never heard that before and I really doubt it.
Before the ugly came out, the question, I think, was does the granting of approx 1600 citizenship papers smack of a political gambit? And yes it does. Germany has been accepting 10,000s of Jews on the sly from Russia for years. I have no idea where they go since I never have seen them. Perhaps they go to the western states....Anyway, this is one of the 'they like us' German Jewish stories that pop up every once and awhile. Usually, it is some 90 year Berlin coming home to die in a resthome.
"You comment is just plain stupid."
Meaty words. I will not refrain from using similar language then. Let´s take a look at what comes along with it:
"And when Brangelina come to Berlin, they will also have plenty of protection. Why? Do Germans hate Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt? No, not all. But there are a few nutcases everywhere."
"There is a lot of police protection at Merkel's office, but she is one of the most popular politicians."
So you compare a general group of people like the jews to specific celebrities or high ranking politicians?
Well this is either neglecting that the latter have millions of people - including lunatics - watching everyone of their moves while the ordinary jew has not.
Or it is - as you put it - just plain stupid.
Pick your choice!
@ Zyme
Regarding the comments of yours that I deleted:
If one Israeli talks about "taking revenge on Hitler" that does not meant that all Jews want to take revenge on Germany.
As as basis of my judgement I simply used the source of your article. If you don´t consider it balanced, you should not use it.
Oh and of course it means they take revenge on Germany. Hitler is dead after all. They are not straining his budget but the national budgets of our country.
Considering that David has often referred to anyone defending Pres. Bush as a dead ender I find using his misquote and reliance on anecdotal information to try to refute and then be used to justify censoring what Reid of America and Zyme wrote rather disheartening. If these type of issues cannot be discussed here in rather innocuous terms then I wonder where I can go to see these particular issues discussed at all outside of some of the more obscure statistical sites that specialize on immigration.
But since there doesn't appear, as of 6:30 PDT, any deletions maybe my concern is premature. Sure, get rid of the race baiters, its your site, but I think censoring Zyme and Reid of America diminishes the honesty of the site. And as I said before to base this act on an anecdotal response doesn't seem serious at all.
Sometimes statistics are embarassing, ie., there are only 1.5 million Sikhs and Hindus in the US and 6.7 million Muslims. Yet there as many Sikhs as Muslims in the US military. So it would be reasonable to assume that in regards to the military it would be wise to encourage Hindu immigration and discourage Muslim immigration. And this observation would go "...against everything Atlantic Review stands for" because?
"Jews make up only two tenths of one percent
of US Armed Forces"
http://www.aztlan.net/jewsusarmedforces.htm
Besides, how do you know that there are 6.7 million Muslims in the US?
The official census does not have numbers on religion...
Maybe there are more Sikhs in the US military because Muslims in the US are higher middle class and those people don't serve in the military as much?
What's really disturbing is that Anonymous has cited a clearly anti-Semitic web site devoted to all sorts of very odd conspiracy theories.
David makes such remarks but doesn't do it on the basis of race or ethnicity, so therefore he apparently feels justified. Never mind that his remarks frequently strike one as invincibly ignorant as any racist, that obviously doesn't bother him.
I tend to view such matters in the context of history. My ancestry is predominantly German and Irish. Neither group is considered inferior at this time, but peek back a century (or even 50 years) and the situation was quite otherwise.
The sociologist Father Andrew Greeley wrote his doctoral thesis in the early 60's on the topic 'Why don't the American Irish attend graduate school?'. When he began his research it swiftly became apparent that it simply wasn't so - the American Irish WERE attending graduate school and entering the academic profession in large numbers, so he changed the topic to analyze why that was occuring.
When Charles Murray (an American Irish) wrote 'The Bell Curve' a similar story came to light about a similar book written a century before by a distinguished Harvard academic. But this book outlined a theory about another group and why they would never enter the higher thinking professions. The Irish of course.
The lesson I take from those stories is that there do exist differences between racial, ethnic, and religious groups at any particular point of time. But it is an immense mistake to view a particular snapshot as static or lasting in any way. Don't do it - time will make you into a fool.....
Pat,
It is true that I have strong aversion to President Bush and his policies, but that sentiment is shared by the vast majority of Americans. I would point out that Democrats and progressive ideas are routinely ridiculed on this site by the (predominantly right-wing) American commenters.
I fudged between the high and low claimed numbers but clearly there are more Muslims, from a variety of nations, vs. the number of Sikhs who are primarily from India and the Punjab.
I was trying to point out that certain groups tend to gravitate to certain professions. There are literally millions of reasons why some groups do well and others not so well either in IQ tests or careers. But to ignore these differences seems then to operate permanently in stereotype and ignorance.
I find these IQ discussions ridiculous.
"why some groups do well"
What are those "groups" based on? Religion or socio-economic background?
If a Catholic guy with uneducated parents, bad kindergarten and schools and tough neighborhood does worse on a standardized IQ tests and in his career than a Protestant guy with nobel price parents, private school education etc, do you really think that his religion is the decisive criterium for his "group"?
Or do I misunderstand you, Pat?
You can define groups by national origin, religion and often by religion in a subset of nationality. Please note that I said that, "That there are literally millions of reasons..."
David,
Then why the perjorative at all. Confine the hostile commentary to those who you think have wronged you or your ideas. Plus the use of such sweeping generalizations, "...vast majority of Americans," makes me less likely to to pay attention not more.
Zyme was misquoted and unless citations can be offered to prove previous anti-Semitic comments then I think an apology is in order for misrepresenting Zyme's views. And before collusion cam be implied it should be noted that here and at Observing Hermann Zyme has tried, sometimes with success, to take a square inch of my hide during disagreements. While to claim that what Reid of America said was racist shows a reliance on cheap rhetoric rather than simply addressing his point.
I fear that this conversation and turmoil has revealed that even the most innocuous disagreements concerning Jews or Israelis has somehow become topics better left unspoken.
Plus I would again point out that the most obvious comment and link revealing anti-Semitism is still on the thread.
I respect Sonja and Joerg right to censor comments on their blog. But it does reflect their German sensibilities.
Ceratin issues it seems can't be directly addressed. In the US we call this political correctness. And probably the most politically incorrect notion is that there is a very wide difference in average IQ among ethnic groups. I feel German's in particular avoid the issue since it has Nazi overtones. This is not the case. If it were environmentalism would be "verbotten" since the Nazis were nature loving environmentalists. No, the reason it is verbotten is because it shatters the notion of equality of outcome that is so central to leftist thinking. If it is true, and it is, that there is a very large difference in IQ among nations then the poor condition of the 3rd world can't be blamed racism or colonialism and but on innate incapability.
Hey Pat,
Your friend Reid makes vile comments about the innate inferiority of certain people or "nations" and yet you attack me for condemning him.
Thanks a lot. At least I now understand your priorities.
There are literally hundreds of studies that show there are small and sometimes huge differences in IQ among identifiable groups. America has been testing IQ's since the turn of the last century, interestingly often at the instigation of people like Margaret Sanger and Theodore Roosevelt.
To merely point out these differences and then have them characterized as "...vile comments about the innate inferiority of certain peoples..." reinforces my opinion that some people are only interested in trying to score brownie points rather than either offer substantial or even reasoned disagreement. But a cheap shot lingers on in the archives forever.
The struggle with IQ testing is not the results of the tests but how to use the information to afford opportunity for all not just tired cliches regarding the difficulty some people have in making their way through life.
Your refusal to offer "substantive or even reasoned disagreement" with Reid's comment about the innate inferiority of certain ethnic groups leads me to believe that you agree with him. At least you identify yourself by name (I assume its your actual name) unlike Zyme and Reid, so I give you credit for that.
David,
You attack those who post anonymously yet you do the same. The real identities of those who post here are irrelevant. What is relevant are the ideas and opinions presented. Why do you want to know my actual identity?
I never used the word "inferior" describing any ethnic group. Let me rephrase so that it meets your political correctness standards. Substitute "differently enabled" for "innate incapability". Now you can stop hyper-ventallating and discuss the subject matter instead of attacking the messenger for being politically incorrect.
"Newly released German immigration statistics show that in 2006, 4,313 Israelis became German citizens, a 50 percent increase over the previous year.
While foreigners can apply for naturalization after eight years living in the country, they generally must forfeit their former citizenship. Among the exceptions are Jews who lost their German citizenship due to Nazi persecution, as well as the children and grandchildren of Jews who fled Nazi Germany. Many Israelis fall into this category."
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/103307.html
I guess I'll have to be more blunt. I place much of the blame of this mess at the feet of David for characterizing Zyme of as an anti-Semite with no references, and to Reid of America for racism, again with no references. Merely name calling!
It would be obvious by now that Zyme and Reid are perfectly capable of response and defending their points of view but the only people honest enough to challenge their views with argument have been Joerg and Sonja. Mere wailing from the peanut gallery indicates a cowardice and lack of confidence in debate that is simply amazing. Absolutely not interested in gaining credit from someone who has only offered up ad hominem attacks against those he disagrees with.
You cannot expect people to change their position 180 degrees in a matter of days. I believe that this debate has left some effect on everyone involved, including the authors.
I think we might be able to talk without any reservation about all issues in this context - at the next time they arise.
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